Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1992/genie-topic4.9203
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Topic 4 Thu Mar 12, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:46 EST
Sub: Holocaust: what are the facts?
A place to discuss claims that the Holocaust didn't happen. This is a
provocative topic, so please be certain that your messages don't violate GEnie
policies against personal attack.
935 message(s) total.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 1 Thu Mar 12, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:50 EST
For those of you who are unaware of the current state of the Holohoax
controversy, you have a real treat in store. There is a LOT of new
work in this field, and if I can only figure out how to use
this @#$% system, I will be bringing it all to you. Feel free to as
any questions, but try to be civil and try to stay on the topic.
See you around!
Greg Raven
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Message 2 Thu Mar 12, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 04:13 EST
I will be quite civil, and shall stay rigidly on the topic.
People who believe that the Holocaust was a hoax are either insane
or liars. The documentation that it existed was immense and
incontrovertable. So many people live for whom it was living memory.
Do you honestly think, perchance, that so many Jews bothered to tattoo
their arms, in such similar ways, and that it is all a ruse? My wife's
uncle was part of Patton's army, that liberated several concentration
camps - do you honestly think that the government went to the trouble
of arranging Hollywood-like sets in advance, for the bamboozlement of
all those soldiers, in a war zone yet? Or that those soldiers were
hypnotized or deluded? My uncle-in-law is the finest, most honest and
honorable man it has been my privilege to meet, and the revulsion and
horror of the things he saw were still vivid, nearly fifty years agone.
It may serve some dark, twisted purpose for the naysayers to deny
that a Holocaust never happened. I can't quite believe it to be due to
anti-Semitism - hatred of a race strong enough to commit oneself to
such a horrific denial is an evil fantasy that Lovecraft would have
shuddered to contemplate. What motives there could really be I can't
even begin to imagine.
Such insane ravings of a 'Holohoax' should be treated with the
contempt they deserve. Only a perverted jackal would dare invent such
a bizarre creed, and as for those who perpetuate it... well, I supposed
I promised I'd be civil.
Hoping against hope that this topic is merely (!) a sick joke,
Bevan
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Message 3 Thu Mar 12, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:45 EST
Began,
Mr. Raven didn't say anything like what you're alluding to in your text. Why
are you so upset? If he's got something to say, let's hear what it is; I
don't see any reason to just leap for his throat just because the guy wants to
talk about the holocaust, or to call him a "perverted jackal" (if that's
"civil", I'd hate to see what you "uncivil" would be like).
I for one don't know much about the subject, but would like to learn more
about it, and if there is more than one side to it, I am all for hearing the
pros and cons.
Please, let's be kinder and gentler. This is America, after all.
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Message 4 Thu Mar 12, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 07:48 EST
Mr.Rungu:
You will note that nowhere in my letter do I refer to Mr.Raven by
name. However, I think the topic header speaks for itself. When one
sees terms like '""Gas chambers," the hoax of the century" and
"Holohoax," that tends to define where the writer is coming from.
Does he have something to say on this subject? He will, no doubt,
let us know. In the meantime, *I* had something to say, and I exercised
my right to say it. There is no reason whatsoever why one has to wait
one's turn, so to speak.
In the meantime, I fully reject this issue as any subject about which
to be kind or gentle, or about which there are 'pros' or 'cons.' If
Mr. Raven had expressed his heartfelt belief that the world was flat,
I might have smiled, shaken my head, typed 'What a silly thing,' PER'd
the topic, and moved on. But to degrade the anguish and murder of
millions of Jews and other races, of which victims many yet live to tell
their tales, is one of the most sickening and perverted creeds of this
era. I utterly reject the notion that this can be taken lightly. I could
with far more equanimity accepted a declaration that Mr. Raven was a
Klansman or an active Nazi.
I've avoided attacking him personally because there are unanswered
questions. Is Raven, perchance, actually intending to mock the hoax
viewpoint? In which I've not insulted him at all. Is he playing a joke on
us? In which case his taste in humor is lousy, but that's not a capital
offense.
But does he really mean what his topic and first post imply? If so,
I daresay a lot of us will have more to say, and be damned to the rules.
You may think that this is a subject fit for debate, Mr. Mungu, about
which there is reasonable doubt. If so, I will forthwith open a debate
about the propriety of taking assault rifles into the inner cities, and
gunning down lower-income residents as a means of civic improvement - -
and I will expect the subject to be treated as a valid issue, to be
debated as a potential positive civic good. There is exactly as much
merit to that argument as to the damned "Holohoax," sir.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
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Message 5 Thu Mar 12, 1992
R.EATON3 at 10:06 EST
Bevan and M.RUNGU,
The truth is that Mr. Raven is a very POLISHED Holocaust denier. He does
not care what you think or what you have to say. He is looking for a forum to
post these ideas and the more upset others get will only serve him better.
In truth, your wife's uncle saw camps in Germany, ones that did not have
gas chambers. The bulk of the extermination process was carried out in Poland
in 6 camps. The majority of these were destroyed either by the Nazis
themselves or in uprisings by the prisoners.
Mr Raven would like nothing better than for us to talk about survivors and
camps that were not part of the extermination process. His motivation is deny
only the theory of gas chambers and and the
more "grist for the mill" we give him, the more he will capitalize
on it.
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Message 6 Thu Mar 12, 1992
M.FEINS at 18:15 EST
-=-=-=- To: M.RUNGU -=-=-=-
Began,
> I for one don't know much about the subject, but would like to
> learn more about it, and if there is more than one side to it,
> I am all for hearing the pros and cons.
> Please, let's be kinder and gentler. This is America, after
> all.
Please explain. Are you, for the moment suggesting that possibility, even the
very remotest possibility, that the Holocaust was a HOAX?
YOU need to be convinced one way or another? Do think this topic is trying
for the truth? You are incredible if that is what you think.
I can assure you, this topic, if continued will assure *you* that this is not
a kinder and gentler America. You shall find out.
The RAVEN calls this topic the HOLOHOAX. Is that information, or an attack. Do
you NOT understand the title and purpose.
I cannot believe such naivete.
I would not even argue it for a second. The amount of films,I have available
to show you or anyone, movies taken as GI's were entering the camps and the
human wrecks visible, piles of bodies like cordwood
will make you retch. The documents available are mountainous. Living right
within two blocks of my home are a number of families with tatoos on their
arms, stories to tell that would shake you to your very foundation, THEY are
all a hoax?? Would like to speak to them???
Suggest you go immedietly to the nearest library and start looking at
documenting books etc. Then come back here and ask the same question.
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Message 7 Thu Mar 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:57 EST
Webster's New World Dictionary (Second Edition) defines the Holocaust as: "the
systematic destruction of over six million European Jews by the Nazis before
and during WWII."
I should probably add there were were over 5 million non-Jews who were
destroyed using the same methods by the Nazis during the same time period.
This latter group includes homosexuals, Communists, Gypsies, Jehovah's
Witnesses, etc.
Now, Mr. Raven wishes to deny the above. Does this mean that there are "two
sides?" No more so than to say that there are "two sides" to whether Elvis is
or is not dead.
How do we know the facts behind the Holocaust? Yes, there are survivors,
liberators and perpetrators who have testified at trials but that is NOT how
we know what happened. Yes, there are photographs of certain camps but that is
NOT how we know what happened. We know because there were literally TONS
(according in one of the Holocaust Denier authors there were 1,100 TONS!) of
Nazi documents captured by the Allies.
Among these documents we have an order, signed by Adolph Hitler, which started
the euthanasia program....resulting in the deaths of 70,000 Germans. Imagine
seeing that signature. It is chilling. Almost as much so as seeing Josef
Mengele's signature for the receipt of the head of a 12 year old boy. Better
yet, listen to the Himmler's Posen speech....which was recorded as it was
given! We have that recording and you can clearly hear Himmler, the head of
the SS, explain what had and was going to become of the Jews.
All of the above is located at the National Archives in Washington, DC. Yet
even this is not the only collection. There is also the Bundesarchiv in
Koblenz and the archives at Riga which have recently become accessible to
Western scholars. And, of course, there are the archives at Yad Vashem in
Jerusalem.
If all of this is true then who can deny the Holocaust? It is good to ask that
question. When you take the time to explore their credentials you find them
peculiarly lacking. When you take the time to read their books, you find them
lacking any sense or logic. In fact, one of their authors (the same one who
stated that there were 1,100 TONS of captured documents) has invented a new
logical fallacy - guilt by POSSIBLE association! One of the theories of this
author is that X _might_ have had contact with _Y_ who _probably_ knew Z,
therefore Z helped plan a conspiracy that was transmitted to X through Y. It
doesn't matter a whit that there is no evidence that any of these people knew
each other!
Mr. Raven: Do you really want to discuss the Holocaust coming from the
position of denying its reality?
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Message 8 Thu Mar 12, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 19:13 EST
Leaving aside the hundreds of hours of footage shot at the death
camps, made under battlefield conditions in an era that lacked Industrial
Light and Magic to do up boffo special effects.
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Message 9 Thu Mar 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:48 EST
8 RTRAYNOR: When you say "death camps," are you referring to the extermination
camps which had gas chambers? If so, you should know that we have no footage
from any of those camps. If, OTOH, you are referring to any camp as a "death
camp" because of the high mortality rates, then you are correct.
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Message 11 Thu Mar 12, 1992
GSCOTT-MOORE [Gerry] at 21:51 EST
\\\---
Even for the most virulent and morally-corrupt of anti-semites, why is it is
important to deny the holocaust? Of all the twisted approaches why do some
latch on to denying it? Why not exult in it? I just can't fathom.
\\\--- Gerry
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Message 12 Thu Mar 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:35 EST
Gerry: The answer as to why some anti-Semites might want to deny the Holocaust
can be understood by the term used in message 1: "Holohoax." IOW, the denial
of the Holocaust is not merely a misunderstanding of documents, etc. but an
intentional fraud perpetrated upon the world (according the Holocaust Deniers,
that is) and, if you accept that idea, the question arises as to whom
perpetrated this fraud. Of course, the Holocaust Deniers are ready with the
answer (which you can probably guess).
This whole movement depends upon instilling doubt in the uninformed and then
shifting that doubt to actual anger at those who are responsible for the
"hoax." Therein they fuel the fires of bigotry.
BTW, Hitler had this strange paradox in his worldview that the Jews were
inferior and "sub-human" and yet, the Jews controlled the world and dominated
the superior non-Jews. Some of the Holocaust Deniers employ a similar paradox:
they view Hitler and his cronies as great men because of the above stated
worldview but, at the same time, they deny that Hitler and his cronies took
any action on that world view.
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Message 14 Fri Mar 13, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 00:02 EST
Well then, Eric, I daresay we can do the "gent" a favor and give him
his fill. There are undoubtedly synagogues in his area in which he'd like
to speak, if he likes causing a ruckus. No doubt he would receive a
prompt and well-deserved attitude adjustment.
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Message 15 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 00:07 EST
I can see a lot of people are upset; but I didn't see anywhere in Mr. Raven's
message a denial of the holocaust, he merely stated that "a lot of work has
been done in this area" or something to that effect. His use of the term
"holohoax" may have been facetious.
Anyway, I think all the insults directed against him are naughty and
unnecessary. Let's hear what he has to say, and THEN everybody can take his
points one by one and comment (without insulting him I hope), and maybe ask
him questions. I hope all the abuse that was IMMEDIATELY thrown at him hasn't
scared him away.
And even if he IS planning to deny the holocaust, then perhaps we can all
agree that he has a right to do that denying, or confirming, or whatever he
wants to do/say, including on a discussion area like this forum, in the same
way that everybody else has a right to take a different position. Personally,
I am very tolerant of ALL views and hate it when somebody expressing an
unpopular viewpoint gets shouted down, attacked, or vilified. This is still a
free country. Let's not have any intellectual bigotry, pleeeeeeeeeeese...
Mr. Raven, you still out there? Speak your piece now.
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Message 16 Fri Mar 13, 1992
J.WEILER4 at 00:15 EST
Let me tell you, when I did a "check" for new messages and saw the title of
this new topic, my stomach turned. I couldn't believe that after all that's
been said, recorded and catalogued, that there is still those who deny the
Holocaust. As a human being and a Jew, I felt my blood boil before I read even
the first message. However, after reading the first 12 messages, and seeing
that there are so many others who feel the same immediate and intense anger
>not directed at the person who started the topic per se, but at the issue>, I
am heartened because it is just such a reaction that will prevent the
Holocaust from happening again. I am relieved as a Jew. I am relieved as a
human being.
I am interested as to what proof the originator of this topic has that the
Holocaust is a hoax....and how long it will take for at least 15 people here
to categorically refute every word.
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Message 17 Fri Mar 13, 1992
P.BOBBITT at 00:28 EST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TO: All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's a shame that "Freedom of Speech" also permits freedom of stupidity.
The Holocaust happened. Fact. Final.
In Canada, we recently had someone sent to jail for spreading lies like this,
along with hate propaganda against Jewish people. I'm glad our country has no
qualms against stopping hate literature published in the name of freedom of
speech.
America should learn that it's amendments aren't black and white. There is
room for the shades of grey necessary to prosecute hate mongers and to keep
its citizens safe from hatred and oppression, whether physical, or in print.
>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Message 18 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:31 EST
First, thank you everyone for participating. It has taken me days to
get to the point where I can limp along on this system, which
seems quite odd. I will only be visiting every other day
or two, so please be patient ... I will try to answer
all your questions as best I can. If you feel I have overlooked
your question, PLEASE repost it. Thanks!*H
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Message 19 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:35 EST
To RTraynor, I am neither insane nor a liar ... the opposite, in fact. As to
the points you raised, raise, applying tatoos is not the same as murdering
someone. Also, the Allies did not liberate the Eastern camps, where the
atrocities are all supposed to have taken place. As nice a man as he may be,
your uncle is wrong about what he thou thought he saw. Finally, at least you
are as wrong about me and my motives as you are about the Holohoax. Can you
produce facts instead of slander and invective, or are you working at the
peak of your form?
(wow, I really am learning to hate this editor).
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Message 20 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:36 EST
To M.Feins, The Holocaust IS a hoax, and not only for one moment but for
nearly 50 years now. And not merely possibility, but fact. No gas chambers!
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Message 21 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:37 EST
oTo Pooh.bah, Webster's may be able to define the word, but they cannot prove
that any of the allegations ever occurred. I trust to appreciate the
difference.
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Message 22 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:39 EST
To Pooh.bah (continued ...) None of the documents you mention prove there was
a Holocaust, and the Pos Posen speech, of which we do not have an authentic
text, does not say what you say it does. By the way, no matter how many tons
of documents stolen from the Germans by the Allies, there is no proof anywhere
in it. If there was, it would have been presented to us before now. Anyone who
tells you otherwise is lying to you.
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Message 23 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:40 EST
to M.Andrews11, Happy to oblige you. They are lying. All of them. And don't
worry. I have plenty to say about this topic, and I'll be back!
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Message 24 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:42 EST
To Gscott- (GSCOTT-MOORE, that is). It is important to study the Holocaust
myth because is the most powerful weapon in the arsenal of the Zionists, who
take every opportunity to use it against us, the Palestinians, etc. If it is a
hoax, which it is, then most of the "moral underpinning" of the illegal and
immoral state of Israel vanishes, and we can finally hope for peace in the
Middle East.
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Message 25 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:42 EST
To Eric-M ... You lose.
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Message 26 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:46 EST
To J.Weiler4, I hope this doesn't burst your bubble, but it will be
impossible for anyone else on this topic to disprove what I have to say. And
it doesn't matter to me that the exterminationists outnumber me many times
over. I have the truth on my side, and that's enough. I invite you to stay
with the discussion, though, as you will discover that you have been used by
the exterminationists just as the rest of us have.
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Message 27 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:49 EST
To P.Bobitt, If you are referring to Ernst Zuendel, a man who I consider to
be a friend and for whom I would go out of my way to help, you are wrong.
Although the repressive state of Canada does prosecute thought crimes,
Zuendel is not in jail. There may be others not as fortunate, but you and your
fellow Canadians are going to have to realize sooner or later that you can't
lock people up for disagreeing with you. The issue is bigger than Zuendel,
Ross, Keegstra, etc. This is a truth that will not be denied. Hope you don't
ever need to exercise YOUR rights up there in the frozen North! You might find
out you have none.
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Message 28 Fri Mar 13, 1992
EIREANNACH at 01:02 EST
Is there a possibility that if we ignore this insanity that it'll go away? I
see nothing to be gained by feeding this ridiculous topic.
Liam |-}-
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Message 29 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:06 EST
22 G.Raven: You claim that anyone who has told me that there are documents
which prove the Holocaust is lying. Well, sir, you are then calling ME the
liar.
Let's discuss how the documents were acquired in the first place. You say that
they were "stolen." Not so. Yes, they were captured. However, the documents
which were captured by the U.S. have been microfilmed and those films are on
file at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. Where are the originals? In
the Bundesarchivs in Koblenz...in Germany. As a matter of fact, Robert Wolfe
who is the director of the Captured German Records at the National Archives
has even been awarded a medal by the Germans for his work in cataloging,
preserving and returning the documents. So, your claim that documents have
been "stolen" is not based in fact.
Now, you have also stated that we don't have a text of Himmler's Posen
speeches (after all, you are aware that there were more than one, aren't
you?). This is also not based in fact. Himmler spoke from notes. These notes
were handwritten by Himmler. His speeches were recorded and the text was
transcribed from the recordings. Once the transcription was completed, Himmler
reviewed it and added/subtracted from the speech to give it more polish in
written form. What remains from this process? We have the handwritten notes,
the recordings and the transcriptions (both before and after Himmler's
corrections). I am not basing this on anyone else's observations or reports. I
have heard the recording (which is much more than Staeglich has done), seen
the handwritten notes (not copies but the actual notes), seen the
transcriptions, etc. These are the actual documents....not on microfilm and
not copies. Staeglich has worked from secondary sources in that he has seen
copies and drawn certain conclusions from those copies. You, apparently, are
basing your conclusions on his work. I would suggest that before you continue
along this line that you take a little trip to the National Archives and
research it for yourself. Or, you might talk to Mark Weber about it since he,
too, has done some of his research at the National Archives and has even
written Mr. Wolfe a letter commending him on his unbiased help.
Now, what about other proof besides the Himmler speeches. It does exist. In
fact, I will post a translation of one such document in the next message. You
claim that this information would have surfaced before now if it existed. It
has surfaced before now but one only knows of its existence if one reads
historical accounts of the Holocaust....and preferably accounts based upon
primary sources.
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Message 30 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:25 EST
As promised in my last message, here is the type of primary documents that are
available which prove that the Holocaust is fact. This particular document is
a report from an official inspection mission to Auschwitz-Birkenau. The
inspection trip took place May 14-16, 1943 and was performed by von Herff and
Franke-Grischke. The latter man (being the junior member of the team) wrote
the report with one copy to von Herff (his direct boss) and the other copy to
Himmler. What follows is that report in translation:
RESETTLEMENT OF JEWS
The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the Jewish
question. The most advance methods permit the execution of the Fuehrer-order
in the shortest possible time and without arousing much attention. The so-
called "resettlement action" runs the following course: The Jews arrive in
special trains (freight cars) toward evening and are driven on special tracks
to areas of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose. There the Jews
are unloaded and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in
the presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point
anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a
special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp and are
restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle behind
everything is: conserve all manpower for work. The previous type of
"resettlement action" has been thoroughly rejected, since it is too costly to
destroy precious work energy on a continual basis.
The unfit go to celars in a large house which are entered from outside. They
go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and well-
ventilated cellar area, which is lined with benches to the left and right. It
is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that
they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. They must
therefore completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their clothing neatly
under their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find their things
again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.
Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which
resembles a shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which
certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When three- to
four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the doors are shut, and
containers filled with the substances are dropped down into the pillars. A few
minutes later, the door opens on the other side, where the elevator is
located. The hair of the corpses is cut off, and their teeth are extracted
(gold-filled teeth) by specialists (Jews). Then the corpses are loaded into
elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria are
located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of
coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish
prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
The results of this "resettlement action" to date: 500,000 Jews. Current
capacity of the "resettlement action" ovens: 10,000 in twenty-four hours.
----------------------------------
The above document has been translated as is. Nothing has been added to it.
All comments in () appear in the original document...also in ().
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Message 31 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:10 EST
Gerry: Please read Mr. Raven's note to you (#24) very carefully. Your full
answer is contained therein but I really didn't expect Mr. Raven to be so
forthright this early in the topic. He refers to the "illegal and immoral
state of Israel" and suggests that if the Holocaust is a hoax that there would
be peace in the Middle East. In his opinion, the Holocaust is the only things
which gives legitimacy to the state of Israel. We are left to infer exactly
how he expects peace in the Middle East to be achieved if enough people doubt
the Holocaust.
Apparently, Mr. Raven is not well versed in recent history. Apparently, he
believes that Iraq's invasion of Kuwait had something to do with Israel. After
all, his suggestion that there would be peace in the Middle East without the
"illegal and immoral" state of Israel also means that without Israel, Iraq
wouldn't have started Desert Storm. Hmmmm.....
So far all we have from Mr. Raven is his calling people who state facts about
the Holocaust liars and his insistence that the Holocaust did not occur.
Perhaps he believes that this is somehow convincing. I'm sure that the rest of
us do not agree. His main claim (in the TOPic description and various
messages) is that there were no gas chambers. On what does he base this?
He has not stated it but, based upon my research of Holocaust Denial, I can
venture an educated guess. He bases this on something called "The Leuchter
Report" which was prepared by Fred Leuchter.
For those of you who do not know Fred Leuchter, let me list some of his
credentials. He received a BA in history. With no other education, he decided
that he was an "engineer" and passed himself off as such. Before this was
noticed by the state in which he practiced (MA), he was asked to be an expert
witness at the Zundel trial in Toronto. In fact, he was paid $35,000 for his
"research" and testimony....which is quite an incentive to arrive at the
desired conclusion. There was one slight problem with all of this....he was
unable to qualify as an "expert witness" and the report for which Zundel had
paid dearly was unable to be entered into evidence. Also, Leuchter was
criminally charged in MA for practicing engineering without a license and
finally settled out of court. As part of the settlement, Leuchter admitted
publicly that he was not and had never been a registered engineer.
This, then, is the quality of "expertise" that the Holocaust Deniers employ -
a man who has been discredited in TWO countries....and even committed perjury
in one of them (by claiming that he consulted at two institutions which have
disavowed such contact with him).
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Message 33 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 03:02 EST
Upon rereading the messages left in the wake of my starting this topic, I
decided to attempt to answer some of the questions raised in a bit more
detail. At this point I should mention that I have not mastered GEnie yet,
and so if you do have questions, please break them into "bite size" pieces so
I can do them justice. For example, try not to ask a question about photos
and documents and war crimes trials and confessions all at once. I'm not
going anywhere. We have plenty of time. Take a deep breath and fire away. ---
If you wish to know a little more about me, my name is Greg Raven and I live
in Santa Monica, CA. I am quite serious in doubting the Holocaust. I do not
seek fame, fortune, or scandal, but neither do I shirk my responsibility to
replace lies with the truth actively and on an ongoing basis. I have been
studying the Holocaust for just over 10 years. I don't hate anyone, and
don't care to. --- To R.EATON3, who claims I am "a very polished Holocaust
denier," thank you. I will admit to having studied this topic quite a bit,
but I didn't realize I had reached the level of being polished. As for my
alleged wish to talk only about the "camps that were not part of the
extermination process," you must realize that from my studies, NONE of the
camps were part of the extermination process. However, I welcome your
additions, and thank you for helping to steer the conversation away from
places such as Dachau, where no extermination took place, although some
uncomplicated people still hold that they did. --- POOH.BAH reminds us that 6
million Jews and 5 million non-Jews are supposed to have been slaughtered by
the Nazis. Does anyone have any idea what a massive undertaking that is?
Given the fact that it supposedly took place in roughly three years' time,
any reasonable person would doubt the veracity of what they had been told.
Unfortunately, most people have been educated into ignorance. --- For those
who ask what I mean when I say I doubt the Holocaust myth, I will say that in
my study of both exterminationist and revisionist sources, I have found NO
documents, NO photos, NO confessions, NO trial transcripts, NO forensic
evidence, and NO eyewitness testimony that comes even close to proving there
was such a thing as a Holocaust. Those who wish to disagree should produce
one or more of the above so we can discuss it. It should be obvious that I
cannot produce any of the above because by definition, I claim it does not
exist. By the way, any undertaking of this size would leave behind such a
trail of evidence that no one would be able to deny it. The fact that there
is NO evidence to support the Holocaust myth is Another Big Clue. --- I have
no desire to get into any discussion about whether Jews are superior or
inferior to Gentiles, Arabs, etc. My only concern is in going after the
facts. As such, I am not interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying
breath. I will say, however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater
than Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of our
century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect, but he about
the best thing that could have happened to Germany. --- If anyone would like
to receive some information about the Holohoax from my perspective, I have a
limited quantity of pamphlets that I would be happy to mail to you. This way,
we will both know where I am coming from, and you can either skip the small
talk or attack me anew ... your choice. Simply leave me an address. I will
not put you on a mailing list. This is a one-time deal. Fair?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 34 Fri Mar 13, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 03:24 EST
Dear me.
We are obviously debating a man who is certainly not sane, although he
is superficially rational. If it can be called "debate," of course; when
someone airily dismissed a tremendous mass of evidence as nonexistant,
he isn't debating, he's reciting his memorized catechism.
I could rebut his perverse un-logic point by point, as Pooh-bah has so
ably begun to do. But to what end? Arguing with fanatical lunatics serves
no useful purpose.
I certainly wish to receive no pamphlets or any other such "info.
If I want swamp muck, there is a marsh within my municipality's city
limits, and I can dredge it by the bucketful. Mr. Raven demands that we
provide him facts, but produces none of his own, beyond his dismissals.
IGN PER, of a certainty.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 35 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 03:32 EST
Ah, Mr. Raven, you ask for us to post any of "the above" (i.e. documents,
photos, etc.) which prove the Holocaust. Yet you leave me wondering since I
spent a little time and effort typing the report: RESETTLEMENT OF JEWS and you
don't even bother to comment on it. This leaves one wondering if you are
sincere in your claim that if we post such evidence that you will address it.
How about the Einsatzgruppen reports? For instance, from report #173 we
discover that one of the five reasons listed for the executions reported in
that report was "belonging to the Jewish race." That seems to give real good
evidence that Jews were being executed just for being Jews, don't you think?
Since you wish to tackle this in "bite-size" pieces, let's just confine
ourselves to answering that single question: Were Jews executed/exterminated
just for being Jewish? (I promise that we can address the gas chambers and
numbers in the future.)
To answer this question I will confine myself to official Nazi documents. I
will be using the Einsatzgruppen Reports, reports and forms from the
euthanasia program and other documents such as the order sent from the
Fuehrer's office to Rommel ordering the execution of any captured Jewish
POW's. (BTW, Rommel did not comply with that order.) I will also use the
Himmler speeches (so you won't be totally in the dark and can use Staeglich to
the best of your ability). I do caution you, though, that you shouldn't depend
upon Lenski's book in which he reports on Mark Weber's testimony on the
Einsatzgruppen Reports in the Zundel trial.
Are you REALLY sure that you want this to continue? If so, pick any of the
documents that I've listed above so that I can keep this in "bite-size" pieces
for you. After all, I would hate for you to claim that I took advantage of
your lack of knowledge of the system.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 36 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.TAGGART at 03:44 EST
G.RAVEN --
Amongst the myriad posts you have made in this topic, coated with anti-Semitic
and Nazi-apologist slime as they are, you yourself have not offered any PROOF
that your foul allegations have any truth or merit whatsoever.
After being presented with lists of documented evidence, you merely gainsay it
by saying that IT is not proof.
Your mere contradiction of the facts cannot disprove the existence of the
Holocaust.
Just where do you claim that those 11,000,000 people WENT?
It's a good thing that you didn't spread these lies in the presence of my
friend Harry, who lost all four of his grandparents and many other relatives
in the Holocaust. He'd have peeled you like a banana.
Go soak your head, Raven. Maybe you'll find the experience helpful.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 37 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.TAGGART at 05:39 EST
>>"I am not interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying
breath. I will say, however, that he was a great man ...
certainly greater than Churchill and FDR put together, and
possibly the greatest leader of our century, if not longer.
This is not to say that he was perfect, but he about the
best thing that could have happened to Germany." -- G.RAVEN
Good God almighty, there's one on every BBS, isn't there?
The only thing "great" about Hitler is that he was perhaps the greatest
murderer of the twentieth Century.
Your belief that he is "great" certainly tells us all we need to know about
you, Raven.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 38 Fri Mar 13, 1992
EIREANNACH at 10:30 EST
Good idea, Bevan
Liam |-}-
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 39 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.GLASSNER at 10:37 EST
Well, I was lurking here until I had a chance to see just where Mr. Raven
was coming from. Now I've seen --
IGN PER
(I've got better things to do - if others want to fuel his warped views....
more power to ya, but I really can't stomach this.)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 40 Fri Mar 13, 1992
GRAFFITI at 14:04 EST
This topic pushes a lot of peoples' "hot buttons" and promises to get very
heated.... I would ask that everyone please observe PF*NPC policy against
personal attacks. Don't let someone incite =you= to violate that policy and
thereby endager =your= posting priviledges in the forum. If you feel you have
been attacked, DON'T RESPOND IN KIND -- you will be just as much in violation
as your attacker. Instead, forward a copy of the message (or at the very
least, the Category/Topic/Message numbers) to the PF$ email address, and we
will review and delete any objectionable messages.
Thanks for your cooperation.
-Ric/PF*NPC sysop
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 42 Fri Mar 13, 1992
ERIC-M at 18:24 EST
>>> P.BOBBITT
> America should learn that it's amendments aren't black and white. There
> is room for the shades of grey necessary to prosecute hate mongers and
> to keep its citizens safe from hatred and oppression, whether physical,
> or in print.
I was taught that a democracy was one in which the majority ruled but the
rights of the minority were preserved.
GEnie may not necessarily want this topic here, and that's fine. This service
is private. I see nothing that would indicate why somebody who expresses
doubt that the Holocast occured should be tarred and feathered, though.
I believe that people who deny the Holocast have a hidden agenda. They do not
really believe that the Holocast never existed. Rather, they are trying to
spread misinformation.
But I see no reason to gag them. There are instances in which government HAS
taught history in a slanted view. Look at the Confederacy and the southern
states. For a while after the Civil War, their history books were quite
different from the North's. They may have even been more accurate about some
events. I don't believe that advocates of the "Holohoax" are more accurate
about anything, though...but that is just my opinion. They are entitled to
theirs as well.
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 43 Fri Mar 13, 1992
ERIC-M at 18:25 EST
>>> G.RAVEN
> It is important to study the Holocaust myth because is the most
> powerful weapon in the arsenal of the Zionists, who take every
> opportunity to use it against us, the Palestinians, etc.
The words "hidden agenda" and "biased" pop immediately to mind. While you
decry others' suggesting that you yourself have an agenda, you then say--
without any proof--that those who believe the Holocast happened are biased
themselves. Can you say "hypocrite"?
> If it is a hoax, which it is, then most of the "moral underpinning" of
> the illegal and immoral state of Israel vanishes, and we can finally
> hope for peace in the Middle East.
I don't understand. First, how is Israel's existence illegal and immoral? If
the Holocast never existed, what does this have to do with current events?
Even if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Holocast did not
exist (which is impossible since you cannot prove a negative), I fail to see
what consequence that would have on the current state of Israel. Israel ain't
going anyplace, anytime soon. If they do, I think they're going to take the
rest of the Middle East with them. :-)
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 44 Fri Mar 13, 1992
D.KAUFMANN1 at 19:27 EST
$$$$$$$$$ WARNING ---- LONG POST $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$ DEFINITELY WORTH YOUR TIME $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Translation follows text.
Ich, Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess, sage nach vorhergehender
rechtmaessiger Vereidigung aus und erklaere wie folgt:
1. Ich bin sechsundvierzig Jahre alt und Mitglied der NSDAP
seit 1922 Mitglied der SS seit 1934; Mitglied der Waffen-SS seit
1939. Ich war Mitglied ab 1. Dezember 1934 des SS-Wachverbandes,
des sogenannten Totenkopfverbandes.
2. Seit 1934 hatte ich unausgesetzt in der Verwaltung von
Konzentrationslagern zu tun und tat Dienst in Dachau bis 1938;
dann als Adjutant in Sachsenhausen von 1938 bis zum 1. Mai 1940,
zu welcher Zeit ich zum Kommandanten von Auschwitz ernannt wurde.
Ich befehligte Auschwitz bis zum 1. Dezember 1943 und schaetze,
dass mindestens 2 500 000 Opfer dort durch Vergasung und Ver-
brennen hingerichtet und ausgerottet wurden; mindestens eine
weitere halbe Million starben durch Hunger und Krankheit, was
eine Gesamtzahl von ungefaehr 3 000 000 Toten ausmacht. Diese
Zahl stellt ungefaehr 70 oder 80 Prozent aller Personen dar, die
als Gefangene nach Auschwitz geschickt wurden; die uebrigen
wurden ausgesucht und fuer Sklavenarbeit in den Industrien des
Konzentrationslagers verwendet. Unter den hingerichteten und
verbrannten Personen befanden sich ungefaehr 20 000 russische
Kriegsgefangene (die frueher von der Gestapo aus den Gefaeng-
nissen der Kriegsgefangenen ausgesondert waren); diese wurden
in Auschwitz den Wehrmacht-Transporten, die von regulaeren
Offizieren und Mannschaften der Wehrmacht befehligt wurden,
ausgeliefert. Der Rest der Gesamtzahl der Opfer umfasste unge-
faehr 100 000 deutsche Juden und eine grosse Anzahl von Ein-
wohnern, meistens Juden, aus Holland, Frankreich, Belgien, Polen,
Ungarn, Tschechoslowakei, Griechenland oder anderen Laendern.
Ungefaehr 400 000 ungarische Juden wurden allein in Auschwitz im
Sommer 1944 von uns hingerichtet.
4. Massenhinrichtungen durch Vergasung begannen im Laufe des
Sommers 1941 und dauerten bis zum Herbst 1944. Ich beaufsichtigte
persoenlich die Hinrichtungen in Auschwitz bis zum 1. Dezember
1943. . . Alle Massenhinrichtungen durch Vergasung fanden unter
dem direkten Befehl unter der Aufsicht und Verantwortlichkeit
der RSHA statt. Ich erhielt unmittelbar von der RSHA alle
Befehle zur Ausfuehrung dieser Massenhinrichtungen.
6. Die "Endloesung" der juedischen Frage bedeutete die
vollstaendige Ausrottung aller Juden in Europa. Ich hatte den
Befehl, Ausrottungserleichterungen in Auschwitz im Juni 1942 zu
schaffen. Zu jener Zeit bestanden schon drei weitere Vernicht-
ungslager im Generalgouvernement: Belzec, Treblinka und Wolzek.
Diese Lager befanden sich unter dem Einsatzkommando der Sicher-
heitspolizei und des SD. Ich besuchte Treblinka, um festzu-
stellen, wie die Vernichtungen ausgefuehrt wurden. Der Lager-
kommandant von Treblinka sagte mir, dass er im Laufe eines
halben Jahres 80 000 liquidiert haette. Er hatte hauptsaechlich
mit der Liquidierung aller Juden aus dem Warschauer Ghetto zu
tun. Er wandte Monoxid-Gas an, und nach seiner Ansicht waren
seine Methode nicht sehr wirksam. Als ich das Vernichtungs-
gebaeude in Auschwitz errichtete, gebrauchte ich also Zyklon B,
eine kristallisierte Blausaeure, die wir in die Todeskammer
durch eine kleine Oeffnung einwarfen. Es dauerte 3 bis 15
Minuten, je nach den klimatischen Verhaeltnissen, um die
Menschen in der Todeskammer zu toeten. Wir wussten, wenn die
Menschen tot waren, weil ihr Kreischen aufhoerte. Wir warteten
gewoehnlich eine halbe Stunde, bevor wir die Tueren oeffneten
und die Leichen entfernten. Nachdem die Leichen fortgebracht
waren, nahmen unsere Sonderkommandos die Ringe ab und zogen das
Gold aus den Zaehnen der Koerper.
7. Eine andere Verbesserung gegenueber Treblinka war, dass
wir Gaskammern bauten, die 2000 Menschen auf einmal fassen
konnte, waehrend die 10 Gaskammern in Treblinka nur je 200
Menschen fassten. Die Art und Weise, wie wir unsere Opfer aus-
waehlten, war folgendermassen: zwei SS-Aerzte waren in Auschwitz
taetig, um die einlaufenden Gefangenentransporte zu untersuchen.
Die Gefangenen mussten bei einem der Aerzte vorbeigehen, der bei
ihrem Vorbeimarsch durch Zeichen die Entscheidung faellte.
Diejenigen, die zur Arbeit taugten, wurden ins Lager geschickt.
Andere wurden sofort in die Vernichtungsanlagen geschickt.
Kinder im zarten Alter wurden unterschiedlos vernichtet, da auf
Grund ihrer Jugend sie unfaehig waren, zu arbeiten. Noch eine
andere Verbesserung, die wir gegenueber Treblinka machten, war
diejenige, dass in Treblinka die Opfer fast immer wussten, dass
sie vernichtet werden sollten, waehrend in Auschwitz wir uns
bemuehten, die Opfer zum Narren zu halten, indem sie glaubten,
dass sie ein Entlausungsverfahren durchzumachen haetten.
Natuerlich erkannten sie auch haeufig unsere wahren Absichten
und wir hatten deswegen manchmal Aufruhr und Schwierigkeiten.
Sehr haeufig wollten Frauen ihre Kinder unter den Kleidern
verbergen, aber wenn wir sie fanden, wurden die Kinder natuerlich
zur Vernichtung hineingesandt. Wir sollten diese Vernichtungen
im Geheimen ausfuehren, aber der faule und Uebelkeit erregende
Gestank, der von der ununterbrochenen Koerperverbrennung aus-
ging, durchdrang die ganze Gegend, und alle Leute, die in den
umliegenden Gemeinden lebten, wussten, dass in Auschwitz
Vernichtungen im Gange waren.
Die obrigen Angaben sind wahr; diese Erklaerung gab ich
freiwillig und ohne Zwang ab. Nach Durchlesen der Angaben habe
ich dieselben unterzeichnet und vollzogen in Nuernberg,
Deutschland, am fuenften Tage des April 1946.
Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess
In my rather rough German, this translates to:
I, Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess, having been duly sworn in, state
and declare as follows:
1. I am 46 years old and member of the Nazi party since 1922,
member of the SS since 1934; member of the SS-in-arms since 1939. I
was, from December 1, 1934, a member of the SS-Wachverband, the so-
called skull unit.
2. Since 1934 I was continuously busy in the administration of
concentration camps and did service in Dachau until 1938; then as
adjutant in Sachsenhausen from 1938 until May 1, 1940, at which time
I was appointed as commander of Auschwitz. I commanded Auschwitz
up to December 1, 1943 and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims
were put to death and exterminated there through gassing and
burning; at least a further half million died through hunger and
sickness, which amounts to a total number of approximately
3,000,000 dead. This number represents approximately 70 or 80
percent of all persons who were sent to Auschwitz as prisoners;
the others were selected and used for slave labor in the industries
of the concentration camp. Among the executed and cremated persons
were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (who earlier
were singled out by the Gestapo from the jails of the war
prisoners); these were delivered into Auschwitz on the Wehrmacht
transports, which were commanded by the regular officers and men
of the Wehrmacht. The rest of the entire number of victims con-
tained approximately 100,000 German Jews and a large number of
inhabitants, mostly Jews, from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland,
Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece or other lands. Approximately
400,000 Hungarian Jews alone were executed by us in Auschwitz in
the summer of 1944.
4. Mass executions through gassing began in the course of the
summer, 1941, and continued up to the fall, 1944. I personally
supervised the executions in Auschwitz up to December 1, 1943...
All mass executions by gassing took place under the direct order,
under the supervision and responsibility of the RSHA. I received
all orders for the carrying out of these mass executions directly
from the RSHA.
6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
found themselves under the mission command of the security
police and the SD. I visited Treblinka in order to determine how
the annihilations were carried out. The camp commander of
Treblinka said to me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course
of a half year. He had mainly to do with the liquidation of all
Jews from the Warsaw ghetto. He used monoxide gas and according
to his opinion his methods were not very effective. When I built
the annihilation building in Auschwitz, I therefore used Zyklon
B, a crystallized hydrocyanic acid, which we threw into the death
chamber through a small opening. It took 3 to 15 minutes,
depending on the climatic conditions, in order to kill the people
in the death chamber. We knew when the people were dead because
their screaming stopped. We waited usually a half hour before we
opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were
brought forth, our special commandos took off the rings and
pulled the gold out of the teeth of the bodies.
7. One other improvement as compared to Treblinka was that
we built gas chambers which could hold 2000 people at once,
while the 10 gas chambers in Treblinka held only 200 people
each. The method and manner how we chose our victims was as
follows: two SS doctors were busy in Auschwitz in order to look
over the arriving prisoner transports. The prisoners had to
pass by one of the doctors, who pronounced the verdict by a
sign in their march past. Those who were fit for work were sent
into the camp. The others were immediately sent into the
annihilation installations. Children of a tender age were
indiscriminately destroyed since on the basis of their youth
they were unfit to work. Still one other improvement, which we
made opposite Treblinka, was the one that in Treblinka the
victims almost always knew that they were supposed to be
annihilated, while in Auschwitz we strove to keep the victims
unknowing in that they believed that they had to undergo a
delousing procedure. Of course they also often recognized our
true intentions and we therefore had sometimes rebellion and
difficulties. Very often women wanted to hide their children
under their clothes, but when we found them, the children were,
of course, sent in to destruction. We were supposed to carry
out these annihilations in secret, but the rotten and nausea-
inducing stench, which went out from the uninterrupted burning
of bodies, permeated the whole region, and all the people who
lived in the surrounding communities knew that annihilations
were in progress in Auschwitz.
The foregoing statements are true; this explanation I
have given voluntarily and without coercion. After reading
through the statements I have signed and ratified the same
in Nuremberg, Germany, on the 5th day of April, 1946.
Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess
From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.
Notes:
(1) Auschwitz was an extermination and slave-labor camp in
Poland.
(2) Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess (1900-1947) was arrested by
British military police in 1946, and after being
interrogated by American authorities, was handed over to
the Polish government. The Poles tried him in March, 1947
and condemned him to death, and executed him in April,
1947.
(3) The SS (Schutzstaffel) was Hitler's black-shirted elite
guard. The SS-in-arms was a branch of the SS which
constituted a separate army along with the regular
German army.
(4) The SS-Wachverband handled special duties, such as
guarding concentration camps. Their insignia was a skull.
(5) Dachau was a concentration camp near Munich.
(6) Sachsenhausen was a concentration camp in Northern Germany.
(7) Gestapo is the abbreviation for Geheime Staatspolizei, the
secret state police.
(8) The Wehrmacht were the German armed forces; this term
replaced Reichswehr after Hitler came to power.
(9) The RSHA was the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, the Reich
security office, headquarters of the SS police forces.
If anyone can provide a more polished translation, feel free.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 45 Fri Mar 13, 1992
NONESUCH at 19:57 EST
There's only one way to deal with people like this.
IGN PER
-= Larry Smith * Amarillo, TX =-
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 46 Fri Mar 13, 1992
GSCOTT-MOORE [Gerry] at 21:38 EST
\\\---
M.Rungu:
Are you happy now? G.Raven has made his/her perspective more than plain. All
witnesses to the holocaust are liars. And they have a reason to lie: to
retain their control of a national state that was stolen from their
predecessors. Something tells me there are plenty more "reasons" for the lie
if the Palestininans are taken out of the argument.
But forget the fact that ALL nations that exist now were "stolen" from a
predecessor. This particular nation has only the one valid reason by which
they can validate their national existance: that millions were killed
somewhere else in a gas chamber. Without this the would crumble and be
dispersed by the wind of "true justice".
So we've heard the logic. All eye-witnesses, all participant, are just a
bunch of dirty liars. Fortunately for us Mr/Ms Raven has come with the real
truth. Of course his/her perspective is only one story, and might well be ill-
compared by virture of sheer numbers to those who would argue for the "hoax".
So who are we to believe the one or the many? I'll go with the many, thank
you.
After reviewing the appropariate bilious response I'll ignore the topic.
\\\--- Gerry
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 47 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 21:46 EST
>>America should learn that it's amendments aren't black and white. There is
>>room for the shades of grey necessary to prosecute hate mongers and to keep
>>its citizens safe from hatred and oppression, whether physical, or in print.
Totally disagree. I think that Mr. Raven has a right under U.S. law to
post untrue nonsense here as much as he pleases. As a member of the ACLU, I
even would support that right legally. I don't like ANY infringement on
anyone's freedoms.
>>...no matter how many tons of documents stolen from the Germans by the
Allies,
>>there is no proof anywhere...
Note that Mr. Raven's phrasing indicates sympathy with the Germans, not the
Allies.
>>By the way, any undertaking of this size would leave behind such a trail of
>>evidence that no one would be able to deny it. The fact that there is NO
>>evidence to support the Holocaust myth is Another Big Clue.
Actually, the above is not Another Big Clue - it's what Hitler would have
called a Big Lie. There's lots of evidence - you just deny it. Read Pooh's
post.
>>As such, I am not interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath.
>>I will say, however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
>>Churchill and FDR put together...
Depends on what you mean by "great". He was certainly a *talented* man,
but most of us reserve the word "great" for those who are not legitimate
icons of evil in our time.
As to those who say, "Just ignore him and he'll go away": I think it's
important to refute his claims, because some of those reading this TOP
may not know history well.
Carl Fink
(Pardon the double-spacing. I have no idea why that happened.)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 48 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 21:53 EST
Mr. Marty Fein,
Your insistence on silence as a response to Mr. Raven's comments are not
reflected in your voluminous postings. Are you saying that everybody should
be quiet about this and not respond to Mr. Raven except yourself, or are you
including yourself and plan to ALSO be silent in this subject area at some
future date?
Judging from the many responses and the heated debate that already seems to be
taking shape after only a few days, it would seem that nobody is interested in
silence but instead want to discuss this thing a great deal.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 49 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 21:56 EST
Mr. C. Taggart,
I read all of Mr. Raven's notes so far, and didn't see anywhere in them any
apologies or support for Nazism, nor did I read any expression of anti-
semitism. In fact, in one of his messages he said something to the effect
that Jews are being "used" by the holocaust.
I am not a mind reader and don't know what his "motivations" or "sympathies"
or whatever are (are you?) and can only go by that which is expressed in his
notes. I think it's only fair that we all approach it this way, i.e. - let's
look at what Mr. Raven is writing, and not at what we THINK he is
writing/thinking/intending. Let's be fair about this.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 51 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:02 EST
Mr. P. Bobritt,
Your comment to Mr. Raven, "you repulsive human being" is pretty extreme
(although it does promote him from "perverted jackal" which was applied to him
in an earlier message), and I don't see how it contributes to this discussion.
I don't see Mr. Raven calling anybody else names, throwing out insults, or
attacking anybody. In fact, so far at least, he's been pretty well behaved,
unlike most of the others appearing in this topic area.
So far as personal behaviour goes, I will give Mr. Raven an "A" at this point.
Mr. Bobritt will have to get an "F".
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 52 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:09 EST
Mr. Raven,
Thankyou for giving us some personal info so we can see where you are coming
from. I wish to apologize on behalf of some of the others, who have thrown
some pretty foul insults at you and who don't seem to have any self-control at
all. They are obviously very upset that you have raised doubts about the
holocaust. Nevertheless, there seems to be a lot of interest in this area and
already this topic is outshining participation-wise, most of the other topics
ANYWHERE on the Public Forum.
Anyway. Some of the ideas you expressed puzzle me. I have a few questions
you could perhaps answer: 1. What specifically is the connection between the
holocaust and
Israel and the Palestinians. I don't see what the one has to
do with the other. 2. You said in one of your notes that there were
"no gas chambers".
What are your sources for this? Can you name some books or
studies or whatever to back up that statement. I see a lot of
movies on tv that deal with the holocaust and they always
show or mention gas chambers. Is tv lying to us? 3. Who is this Zundel
person you mentioned? You said in connection
with his name something about thought control in Canada, or
'thought crimes' or something like that. Amplify? I am curious to see
your replies. Many thanks, and a few handclaps for your good behavious in
the face of all the insults and attacks directed at you.
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Message 53 Fri Mar 13, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.] at 22:13 EST
M.Rungu:
Are you ready to acknowledge at this point that those who characterized
G.Raven's efforts as attempting to deny the existence of the Holocaust are
correct? If not, why not? How else do you interpret the original - now
vanished - topic header, with its references to non-existent gas chambers, the
"Holohoax," etc., and G.Raven's subsequent posts?
It is not "intellectual bigotry" to denounce this effort, any more than it is
"intellectual bigotry" to denounce an effort, no matter how well "documented,"
to prove that the earth is not round. Intolerant, perhaps - but it is an
intolerance that is legitimately deployed when anti-human, hateful agendas are
promulgated.
I have for a long time wrestled with the question of whether the US, like
Canada, ought to place legal sanctions on hatemongering, but regardless of
one's opinion on that question, there is a big difference between arguing that
the power of the state ought not to be used to prevent such speech and arguing
that it deserves a respectful hearing. What it deserves is the contempt that
any exposition of racist, anti-historical, pro-Nazi, genocidal ideas deserves.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 54 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:31 EST
To J. Weisberg
Yes, it is clear now that Mr. Raven is denying the holocaust, or at least
parts of it. Still, he has the right to do so just as you or I have the right
to contradict him.
But I disagree with what you said about intolerance of his views being
"legitimately deployed". Intolerance is NEVER legitimately deployed.
Intolerance is intolerance; bigotry is bigotry; and racism is racism. The
intolerance or bigotry or racism expressed by one person is no more acceptable
than that expressed by another. And I see a lot of intolerance directed
towards Mr. Raven's views. Tolerance, on the other hand, is not the same thing
as "agreement". This is America, where freedom of speech and freedom of
expression and freedom of thought are enshrined in our constitution and in our
laws. I don't see anything in our constitution about "EXCEPT for those
denying the holocaust". If such an exception is somewhere in our
constitution, please refer me to it and I will stand corrected. Thankyou.
Really, the appearance of this topic can be regarded as a kind of test, a test
as to the level of tolerance and goodwill that exists in our country towards
unpopular viewpoints. So far, just about everybody has FAILED the test, which
bodes badly for the future of our country.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 55 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:35 EST
To Mr. Raven,
As an afterthought, I have another question.
I have a book called THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK. When I read it, I was very
moved; Anne Frank wrote about her sufferings before the Germans took her away
to Auschwitz and gassed her. My question is, have you read this book, and if,
after reading it, how can you question the holocaust? The DIARY is required
reading is many or most schools, and really, to me at least, it represents the
holocaust like no other book can. I am sure that most of the people who have
read Anne's diary will agree with me there.
Your comments?
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Message 56 Fri Mar 13, 1992
H.WILSON11 at 22:38 EST
28 EIREANNACH...
There's a saying on the Sci-Fi bb DFTEB..don't feed the energy beast (or
something like that)
If we all ignore him, he'll soon tire of his silly game, and go play
elsewhere.....Harvey in Atlanta.
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Message 57 Fri Mar 13, 1992
DD.LANGDON at 22:55 EST
Mr. Raven,
Are you blind or just obnoxious? The facts of the Holocaust have been so
thourghly documented by historians and journalists that only a fool would deny
that it occured. Most clear in my thoughts was a documentary several years
ago that interviewed (former) Nazis about what happened in the camps. Their
descriptions were more horrifying than anything I could have imagined.
I suggest you spend some time in the library checking out European world
history circa 1932 - 1945.
Dan Langdon
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 58 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:55 EST
M.RUNGU: It is amazing how closely your posting style matches that of Greg
Raven. It does make one wonder, doesn't it?
Anyway, you said that Greg did not mention Iraq in his message and you are
correct. However, Greg did indeed imply that without Israel there would be
peace in the Middle East. I was using the recent situation with Iraq to prove
how faulty his logic is.
Now, you have asked Mr. Raven a number of questions. Since he mentioned in a
previous note that he would be unable to log on every day, let me take this
opportunity to answer the questions for him.
1. You asked for Mr. Raven's connection between the Holocaust/Israel and the
Palestinians. Okay, here is the way the Holocaust Deniers rationalize the
connection. They believe that the only reason that Israel exists is because of
the Holocaust and, in fact, they even believe that the Zionists (as well as
other Jewish organizations...per the CODOH ads) have concocted the Holocaust
as a false story just for that purpose. Therefore, if it hadn't been for the
Holocaust, there would be no Israel (of course this ignores both the Balfour
Declaration and the British Mandate...both of which predate the Holocaust)
and, with no Israel, the Palestinians would have the entire piece of real
estate now known as Israel and the Middle East would be at peace. The
Holocaust Denier author who most clearly states this is Butz and he does so on
the first page of his forward.
2. Next, you asked about the gas chambers and what studies have been done. Now
Mr. Raven would tell you all about Leuchter and his report and, if you look
uptopic a few messages, you will find that Leuchter has no qualifications to
write anything on gas chambers. Also, Mr. Raven will claim that the Leuchter
report is the only forensic study that has been done. If he were to do so, he
would definitely be misleading the readers here. After all, he would have
ignored the study done in 1945 by the Krakow Institute of Judiciary Expertise
which proved there were vast quantities of hydrocyanide compounds on the six
ventilation grills from Krema II that they tested.
3. You next asked about Zundel and his Canadian court case. Zundel is a
citizen of Germany and not Canada but has made his home in Canada for many
years. Canada has a law against spreading "false news." It was under this
criminal law that Zundel was prosecuted and convicted TWICE (the original
court case and the appeal). It was proved to two different juries that Zundel
was disseminating false information which he KNEW were lies...yet he claimed
what he was saying was the "truth." What false news was he spreading? The
"news" that the Holocaust is a hoax! IOW, the Holocaust has been put on trial
twice in Canada and has been proven twice! Although the Holocaust Deniers have
an author who wrote a book about the second Zundel trial, the best source is
the actual transcript of the proceedings.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 59 Fri Mar 13, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 23:23 EST
M. Rungu:
You suggest that it is impossible to tell what one is thinking from what
he/she is writing. However, if you know anything about the language of anti-
Semitic rhetoric, you should be able to recognize code phrases like "the
Holocaust is one of the biggest weapons in the Zionist arsenal."
Mr. Raven:
Gee, sir, I'm confused. Please help enlighten a dumb Jewish boy from New
York. Ok: I can see what a great weapon for us all the Holocaust is; but
then how come we're not using the Inquisition, the Pale of Settlement,
Chelmnicki's rebellion, the Slavic pogroms, etc...?
Inquiring minds want to know.
PS: I'm lucky, because I'm 5th generation American. I've got my grandparents
(the ones who haven't died in other ways, at any rate). But many of my
Jewish friends in the neighborhood lost grandparents in the Holohoax. Others'
grandparents (and parents) survived the Holohoax. What should I tell these
people? I'd really like to be able to explain to survivors I know what REALLY
happened to them (or are they just making it up to get sympathy and attention
and chicken soup); similarly, I'd like to be able to tell my friend Matt
where his grandparents really went. (Maybe they won the Polish lottery and
ran off to found a synagogue in Shangri-La???)
Dave Friedman
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 60 Fri Mar 13, 1992
J.WEILER4 at 23:43 EST
I just don't understand what Mr. Raven has been reading about the Holocaust
that he can honestly say there is no evidence of its existence. 11,000,000
people ceased to exist. How can anyone deny that? There are people still alive
today with tattoos on the their arms who SAW (read EYE WITNESSES) people
getting killed and beaten in these camps.
My first reaction was to be silent and IGN PER this topic because it makes me
very upset. I decided I can't do that or I would be a bigger liar to myself
than Mr. Raven is. There were children who went to these camps and never saw
their parents again...were they part of the hoax too?
Furthermore, I do not appreciate, Mr. Raven, being patronized by you. Don't
fear, your "truth" will not burst my idealic bubble as you so put. I'm an
educated adult who has spent the past 6 years reading everything I could about
the Holocaust. This interest started when I found out how it had affected
members of my family.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 61 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:53 EST
55 M.Rungu: Are you serious, a shill or Greg in "disguise?" I find it very
interesting that you are only asking questions which exactly match the pre-set
Holocaust Deniers' dogma.
If you would like to know all about Anne Frank's diaries and loose sheets, I
would recommend that you check into the "Critical Edition" of her diary. It is
fascinating. First there is a group of essays, reports, etc. which include the
results from the State Science Forensic Laboratory of the Netherlands. The
SSFL tested the diaries and loose sheets for purposes of authenticating them.
Their final report was over 250 pages but there is an excellent summary in the
"Critical Edition."
I will be more than happy to summarize the results here but, suffice it to
say, they were able to determine that all the materials used (i.e. paper, ink,
binding, glue, etc.) were available at the time that Anne was in hiding and,
it turns out that shortly thereafter, elements which were present in these
materials at that time were removed. For instance, the ink had a high
concentration of iron but within five years inks no longer contained iron or
had very low concentrations.
The handwriting has been compared to other samples of Anne's writing from
letters to friends, etc. and it checks out perfectly.
The "Critical Edition" also contains all the diaries and loose sheets with
only minor changes. For instance, there are people mentioned in the diaries
who are still livin today. Some of them refused to grant permission to use
their names so initials are used instead.
Even with all of this and the fact that the diaries are fascinating, I have to
disagree that they tell the story of the Holocaust unlike any other source.
The diaries are the story of the life of one girl who died of typhus quite a
while after the last entry in the diary. The Holocaust was the systematic
destruction of over six million European Jews by the Nazis before and during
WWII. The diaries mention nothing of that....at best, they give us insight
into the lives of Jews who were hidden by the Righteous of the Nations.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 62 Sat Mar 14, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 01:08 EST
Dear me. Mr. Raven's raving do not inspire me to respond. Mr. Rungu's
do.
It is very interesting, and beginning to be enlightening, that you
excoriate those of us who are a touch warm on the subject for being
intolerant, suggest that intolerance is never acceptable, and quite
ignore Mr. Raven's own intolerance.
It is even more interesting that you value politeness as a virtue
superior to any other moral. Would you consider me a fine person, and
praise my posts, if I started a topic about the goodness of sacrificing
babies to Satan, eating their still-beating hearts raw, and forcing
women into pregnancy after pregnancy to keep the supply up... just so
long as I was polite and non-combative about my posts?
You will perhaps forgive me for feeling that there are higher values
to be upheld than praising Hitler in a civil fashion. Among them is
truth; it is difficult to imagine, as you attempt to rationalize, that
Raven does not praise Nazism when praising its chief adherent and
prophet - exactly what made Hitler "great" if it was not the
philosophic basis for all his actions? It is difficult to imagine that
you truly love civil discourse, when you make a point of mocking
POOH-BAH's name. If your sole contributions are going to be to
admonish us in a patronizing tone to play nice, you needn't - the sysops
can do that just fine, as Ric already has.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 63 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 01:10 EST
RUNGU-RAVEN, RAVEN-RUNGO and this shall be my last. There shall be
SILENCE
Obviously you are one and the same person, set em up in the alley, and the
knock em down what a farce and a shame, and you may rant on.
Per Ign
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 64 Sat Mar 14, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 01:18 EST
Well, they do appear to be seperate people, living in Washington and
California respectively, according to the directory.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 67 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:34 EST
To Pooh.Bah --- You know, people like you and Raul Hilberg have obviously
studied this matter to some degree, and seem quite intelligent. I find it
Beyond Belief that you would cling to such a wrong-headed interpretation of
the facts. Perhaps you have a vested interest in supporting the illegal and
corrupt state of Israel. No matter. --- The Himmler speech (message 29) to
which you seem to be referring (October 4, yes? and not October 6?), is one
of a series of speeches given by Himmler during this time. By focussing in on
roughly two pages of the text (out of 60+ pages), and by ignoring the other
speeches (which were along the same lines), you manage to misrepresent the
entire matter. --- You also have to look at other Himmler documents, such as
the cover letter he wrote concerning an article of alleged atrocities by
Stephen Wise and the World Jewish Congress. There, Himmler calls these claims
propaganda. --- You have also ignored the meetings between Himmler and Masur,
in which Himmler says that the camps are not what they are rumored to be.
For that matter, Himmler told others on numerous occasions that these
allegations were not true. --- In fact, Himmler participated in the Europa
plan through 1942, 43, and 44, in Brataslavia, Slovakia, to find a place to
send the Jews to get them out of Germany (including the occupied
territories). Jews involved in those negotiations (and Jewish historians
since then) believed Himmler to be sincere in his desire to find someplace to
resettle the Jews. --- I realize that this speech is often touted as the best
evidence (which in itself is a damning indictment of the quality of the
established Holocaust history), but once you read Mark Weber's upcoming book
(which deals with this and other subjects), you will understand just how
shaky this plank is. --- By the way, Mark says "hi."
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 68 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:35 EST
Pooh.Bah, Pooh.Bah, Pooh.Bah! --- You have slipped so far so fast! Are you
really so desparate for "proof" that you have to jump from the Oct. 4 Himmler
speech at Posen to the obviously fabricated Franke-Gricksch "Resettlement
Action Report?" Wow! --- Weren't you just telling me how you have referred to
the original documents? Of the F-G report? Really??? Are you sure you didn't
refer to a typescript cop made by Eric Lipman from a carbon copy of the
original ... which has NEVER been found? Have you not seen the English words
accidentally used in place of German words in this typescript copy? Have you
not seen the other errors? --- All that aside, any reasonable person reading
this "report" would immediately suspect something is wrong. Where is this
"house?" Where are the hollow pillars? What "certain substances are used? How
is it possible to open the doors a few minutes later when a deadly poison is
supposedly still rampant in the air? How can the hair be cut off without
rinsing it of the poison gas? Just how big is this house that it has
elevators for hundreds of dead people? Is it normal for large Polish houses
to have ten large crematoria? By what amazing physical property do fresh
corpses burn particularly well? If it takes a modern crematoria 2 to 3 hours
to partially dispose of a human corpse, how can 10,000 corpses be disposed of
in 24 hours with only 10 crematoria? --- The Franke-Gricksch "Report" is not
only a bad forgery, the fabrications contained therein do not even hang
together. You MUST be able to do better than this!
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 69 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:35 EST
To Pooh.Bah --- Although there may not be peace in the Middle East without the
state of Israel there, it is unquestionable that had we not been so eager to
support the thugs of Tel Aviv, we would not have installed the Shah of Iran
and trained him to oppress his people, so the Ayatollah would not have come
to power by overthrowing him. Thus, we would not have had to arm Iraq to
counter the religious fundamentalism with a secular state (lead by Saddam
Hussein). Of course, if you wish to go further back, if we had not backed the
British in dividing the Middle East to suit their "divide and conquer"
tactics, perhaps Kuwait would never have been separated from Iraq in the
first place.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 70 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:36 EST
To Pooh.Bah --- You make a great deal of noise (much of it inaccurate) about
Fred Leuchter, the man. Why not address the contents of the Leuchter Report?
Answer: because you cannot. Furthermore, I note that you have not reported
that the results of the Leuchter Report were duplicated by the Department of
Toxicology in Poland, that a prominent Austrian engineer has just issued a
report that backs Leuchter's, and that a prominent German engineer is in the
process of issueing a report that backs Leuchter. It doesn't matter if
Leuchter is only "qualified" to herd banana slugs, if you with all your high
and mighty "proof" cannot provide evidence that his Report is not accurate,
you are evading the issue. I wonder why! --- For those who do not know Mr.
Leuchter, I can assure you that this man wouldn't know how to tell a lie. He
is so straightforward and honest it makes you wonder if there are any more
like him around. He WAS accepted as an expert witness at the Zuendel trial,
and he DID consult with those prisons who disavowed contact with him. I have
more details on this, if anyone is interested. --- The reason why Mr. Leuchter
was accepted as an expert witness is that Mr. Bill Armontrout, warden at
Missouri State Prison, swore under oath that the ONLY expert on gas chambers
and other extermination equipment in the United States is Fred Leuchter.
Period. Mr. Leuchter has many designs, patents, and other accomplishments to
his name. He is competent in the extreme. --- The bottom line is that the
Leuchter Report and all the others say the same thing: there were no gas
chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau, or Majdanek. Not only are the rooms not
capable of being used as gas chambers, tests show that they never were used
as such.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 71 Sat Mar 14, 1992
P.PERCHANSKY [Marana_tha] at 06:52 EST
Hello to every one:
It amazes me that any one could try to purpertrate (sp?) an outright lie that
the Holocaust never happened or that gas chambers never existed.
THE ENTIRE WORLD HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE (VIA FILM) THAT GAS CHAMBERS
EXISTED AND THAT HUMANS DIED FROM THEM.
--- Peter M. Perchansky
Psalms 18:31
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 72 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:51 EST
Greg Raven: Tell Mark Weber that I said "hi" right back. Now, let's go over
the evidence, shall we? First, about the F-G report. Actually the copy I
reviewed is the carbon copy. Being a carbon copy, it is an exact duplicate of
the original. The problems that you mentioned as far as the text itself is
concerned was not evident. But what about the description contained in the
report?
Now, you have taken that word "house" to mean literally a building where
people reside and, a single family dwelling at that. Is that what that one
word means? Not necessarily. When evaluating any document it must be evaluated
not only on its content but also the CONTEXT of other documents.
For instance, we know that the buildings which housed the gas chambers and
crematoria were concealed by shrubbery, etc. These buildings might indeed be
referred to as "houses" for want of a better word....after all, that is what
they were supposed to resemble and not some cold, death inducing facility. Is
selecting a single word the best you can do in debunking an entire document?
You also complain that the exact substances that were put down the pillars are
not mentioned. What was the reason of this report? F-G was a member of the SS
personnel office. He and von Herff were sent on this official inspection to
determine why there were suicides among the SS guards. Therefore, the PROCESS
that was being employed was important and not the details.....the purpose of
the report was to evaluate what the SS personnel had to experience and if this
was somehow involved with the suicide rate. BTW, we know all this from the
primary documents in F-G and Herff's personnel files.
What about the removal of the bodies a few minutes later? That was the purpose
of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers. It was the grills from these
ventilation systems that was tested by the Krakow Institute of Judiciary
Expertise in 1945 and found to have large quantities of hydrocyanide
compounds.
What special properties do fresh corpses have that allow them to burn
particularly well? That isn't too difficult. First, it is called fresh fat.
Second, it is called lack of embalming. Why weren't these features mentioned
in the report? Because that wasn't the purpose of the report.
Why wasn't the hair washed before being handled? Now that question is really
reaching isn't it? After all, the answer is contained within the report
itself. "The hair of the corpses is cut off...by specialists (Jews)" and "The
job is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never step outside this camp again."
IOW, they weren't concerned about those who cut the hair being contaminated by
traces of cyanide that might remain. It is really very simple....and it also
is interesting to note that F-G was very particular as to who the
"specialists" were and who handled all of this processing. After all, that WAS
the purpose of his report.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 73 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:07 EST
Raven: Are you not aware that Himmler made TWO speeches in Posen? You keep
pointing to only the one. Perhaps you should investigate further. Now, let us
put his Posen speeches into context. SS personnel at the extermination camps
were committing suicide. In May, F-G and von Herff of the SS Personnel Office
make an official inspection trip to determine the reason(s) for this. In
October, Himmler makes his speeches to these same individuals and anyone else
concerned in the "Final Solution." What was the purpose of these speeches? It
certainly wasn't for public consumption. In fact he even stated that what the
audience was going to hear would not be spoken of again and never written
about (it brings to mind Lincoln's statement that the Gettysburg Address would
not be remembered but the battle would be).
These speeches outlined the program and made a point to explain why women and
children had to also be included. Therein we learn the reason for these
meetings and the speeches. The SS suicide rate had been determined to be
caused in whole or in part by the slaughter of innocent women and children.
Therefore, since Himmler had already determined that the SS personnel at the
camps could not be rotated out to the less stressful "front," it became
important to clearly elucidate the reason for murdering the innocents.
Once again, we know all of this from the primary documents....the memos,
reports and other correspondence. We even know that the meetings had programs
that were handed out by being placed on every seat and that it was forbidden
to remove a program from the room in which Himmler made his speeches.
It is interesting that you speak of "historians" as though they are a
monolithic group when it comes to the Holocaust. Why didn't you clearly state
(so as not to mislead) that the FUNCTIONALISTS are the ones who place greater
importance upon those documents which were meant for public consumption than
do the INTENTIONALISTS? Logic demands that we emphasize the private more than
the public. There can be political reasons for the public statements which
have nothing to do with the facts. The private statements are also motivated
by certain forces but rarely are those forces as significant as the pressure
on the public statements.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 74 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:30 EST
Raven: You want an evaluation of the Leuchter Report? Really? First, let's
correct a misunderstanding about Leuchter's qualifications. To do this it is
prudent to review the court record of the second Zundel trial. In there the
court states: "I realize his opinion on this report is that there were never
any gassings or there were never any exterminations carried on in this
facility. As far as I'm concerned, from what I've heard, he is not capable of
giving that opinion."
That seems pretty clear to me. The court determined that Leuchter is not
capable of giving the opinion that there were never any exterminations or
gassings carried out at Auschwitz. However, you also mentioned Majdanek. You
have read the Leuchter Report haven't you? If so, then you know that Leuchter
never conducted any studies at Majdanek!
But, let's review the report and see what we find. Leuchter correctly states
that the Nazis were planning/constructing the gas chambers in late 1941. He
also states that at that time the US was the only country in which executions
were being carried out by gas chambers and then concludes that these two facts
make the gas chamber story implausible because Germany never consulted the US
on gas chamber technology. It leaves one wondering if Leuchter has ever heard
of a little something called WWII!
Then we have an even funnier episode later in the report. Leuchter correctly
identifies the structures he was examining as having been razed to the their
foundations. Then he latter states (on the same page but over a column) that
these structures would not be SAFE to be used as gas chambers! Let me tell
you, I would have to agree with that....any structure that has been razed to
its foundations would be very difficult to use as a gas chamber (or anything
else) and, since there are loose bricks, etc. still around, it would not be
safe.
Then we have Leuchter stating that "Kremas I, II, III, IV and V are described
historically and on inspection were verified to have been converted mortuaries
or morgues connected and housed in the same facility as the crematories."
Hmmmm.....so they were converted mortuaries and morgues, huh? Into what were
they converted? Leuchter never tells us in his report but he did say above
that they have been "described historically and on inspection were verified"
which means that his inspection verified the historical description.
Therefore, we must review the historical description to discover into what
they had been converted and, lo and behold, we discover that they are
historically described as GAS CHAMBERS!
But, let's address the "forensic" evidence. In so doing, I am going to have to
ignore the non-scientific method that Leuchter employed but my comments do
need to be taken not as fact but only as facts based upon the results of
Leuchter's dubious methods. To do this we only need to turn to Appendix II
where Leuchter gives us a nice graph of the analysis of the samples he
illegally removed from Auschwitz.
Now we need to keep in mind Leuchter's statements that these structures have
been razed to their foundations. We know from the historical record that this
was done 43 YEARS before Leuchter went to Auschwitz-Birkenau. So, for 43 YEARS
the samples he stole had been exposed to rain, sun, snow, ice and pollution.
Yet, with all that, in Kremas I, III, IV and V, traces of cyanide remainded
(ranging from 1.1 mg/kg - 7.9 mg.kg). Imagine the quantities of cyanide that
had to be present to have withstood this test of time and the elements!
I can certainly understand why the court would find that Leuchter is not
capable of rendering an opinion that these structures were never used for gas
chambers, can't you?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 75 Sat Mar 14, 1992
ERIC-M at 11:12 EST
>>> M.RUNGU
> So far as personal behaviour goes, I will give Mr. Raven an "A" at this
> point. Mr. Bobritt will have to get an "F".
Let's also give Mr. Raven an "A" in ventriloquism, shall we? :-)
/
|/ ric, sitting back and starting to enjoy the comedic value of this
|/ charade
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 76 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 11:26 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 77 Sat Mar 14, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 11:40 EST
Raven says he considers A. Hitler to be a great man; one would assume,
then, that he has read *Mein Kampf*. Anyone who reads *Mein Kampf* is left
with no doubt as to Hitler's opinions concerning the Jews.
.
If one were a lawyer trying a murder case, the first thing to be
established would be "motive"; i.e. for what reason did the accused perpetrate
the crime upon the victim? I would think that even a short scan through *Mein
Kampf* would leave the "jury" with a pretty solid impression of "motive".
One would have to conclude that the writer (i.e. Hitler) was highly
"motivated" to very negative actions against the Jews. Hitler wrote the book
during the twenties, years before he gained power. "Jews" (and Hitler's
perception of their role in World and European history) are the dominating
theme of the book. Hitler accuses the Jews of being the source of all social,
economic, and political ills of the world...he paints them as a kind of
parasitic virus "infecting" the "healthy peoples" of the world. Subsequent
Nazi literature expanded on this theme of Jews as "viruses", "bacterium",
"vermin", etc. Hitler goes on to imply that he is the "doctor" that Germany
and the world needed; though not being exactly specific as to his proposed
"remedy"; one is left with no doubt as to his basic intentions (given future
opportunity). So with no further ado, if it please the court, the prosecution
enters the book *Mein Kampf* as State's exhibit "1".
.
The second factor our "lawyer" must establish is "opportunity". I don't
think there is anyone who will question the general outline of the military
history of the European Theater of WW2. At its peak of expansion, Nazi
Germany had conquered most of the territory (and population) of continental
Europe. Included in these populations living under Nazi administration were
the bulk of European Jews. I submit, by virtue of generally accepted
historical fact; that Hitler indeed had the "opportunity" to do pretty much
anything he wanted to do to the Jews (and anyone else) residing in much of
Europe from 1942-45.
.
Now comes the first of the points where Raven might try to wiggle out of
a conviction (on technicalities). We must establish the "weapon" or
"weapons". I would propose to the jury that the Nazi State itself was the
weapon; it was designed and built (mostly by Hitler) not as a national state
to maintain the well being and prosperity of the German people, but as an
instrument of destruction; pure and simple. From the moment the Nazis gained
control of the German State apparatus in 1933, they set to work preparing it
to be the instrument of the will of its Fuehrer. The "will" of its Fuehrer
was the destruction of all those he perceived as his (and by implication
Germany's) enemies...the Jews were at the top of the list (see prosecution
exihibit "1"). Raven might lead us into all sorts of technical arguments
about the relative efficiency (for mass killing) of XyxlonB as opposed to
Carbon Monoxide or a bullet in the back of the head. He may even discredit
certain eyewitness testimony. Whereas we sometimes use the saying, "we can't
see the trees for the forest", in Raven's case, he can't see the forest for
the trees. Raven would have us stand around a particular tree; because we
cannot agree whether it is an ash, and oak, or a pine, he would have us deny
we are in the midst of a forest.
.
The fourth major piece of evidence would be the "corpus delecti"... i.e.
the body, in this case, the corpses. Since the events in question took place
nearly 50 years ago...this presents a problem to the prosecution. Up to this
point, we have relied heavily on photographic and anectodal evidence. We may
at this point be able to "prove" perhaps only hundreds of thousands rather
than millions of victims. Mass cremation leaves less forensic evidence than,
say, mass burial pits (i.e. skulls, bones etc.). Up until 1989, the areas in
which the bulk of the killings are thought to have occurred had been under
control of a power which had its own crimes to conceal and was hence not too
enthusiastic about investigators digging holes here and there in the forests.
Perhaps the post 1989 political environment in Eastern Europe and the former
Soviet Union opens the possibility of further forensic investigation and
gathering of evidence on these matters. If we discover the ash pits, however,
how do we evaluate them? One pound of ash equals one victim? Will we quibble
about numbers? We DO HAVE solid forensic evidence gathered right after the
war on at least hundreds of thousands of victims...is this not enough to
convict?
.
Germany under Hitler was the personal weapon of Hitler...Hitlers "enemies"
were certainly within range and in his sights; Raven implies that Hitler never
pulled the trigger. Raven might present some interesting arguments as to
whether "x" number of Jews and others were killed with a bullet as opposed to
Cyanide gas or starvation or exposure or whatever...he might also present some
arguments as to numbers killed at location "A" as opposed to location "B"...
he may even argue as to the total numbers killed. Would we lessen the charges
if it could be proved that "only" 9 million or 6 million or even 1 million
died? If Raven were successful in revising the numbers (downward); would
this be a valid reason to "dismiss the charges"; or would it be just an
historical reevaluation of the efficiency and effectiveness of the Nazi
killing machine?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 78 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 13:09 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 79 Sat Mar 14, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 13:38 EST
>>I read all of Mr. Raven's notes so far, and didn't see anywhere in
>>them any apologies or support for Nazism, nor did I read any
>>expression of anti-semitism.
Read more carefully, M.RUNGU. Also, use a name, please - I hate talking to
someone's mailbox label.
>>Mr. Pooh Bah,
>>Or should I call you Winnie-the-Pooh?
Actually, it should be "Ms. Pooh-Bah," if anything - and she takes the name
from Gilbert and Sullivan's MIKADO, not the children's book.
>>I find them TOPic disgusting, and offensive to anyone of
>>goodwill, and further suggest that the topic can not possibly lend
>>itself to civil discourse. As an offended subscriber to this
>>service, I am requesting that the sysops purge this obscene topic.
I find the message from which this was excerpted (number 65) to be
abhorrent, and I am offended by the poster's desire to tell me what I can and
can't discuss. If you're offended, Tony, stop reading it, but don't try to
tell others what to do. I find the TOP disgusting too, but I don't elevate my
personal reactions into law, or even GEnie regulation.
>>The sysops should be ashamed!
YOU should be ashamed of yourself - you are violating the very highest
ideals of this country by trying to close discussion. Would you also like to
close the museum at Yad Veshem - then you wouldn't have to risk hearing about
the Holocaust when in Jerusalem?
>>Perhaps you have a vested interest in supporting the illegal and
>>corrupt state of Israel.
So, M.RUNGU, still no sign of hatred or anti-Semitism?
>>...it is unquestionable that had we not been so eager to support
>>the thugs of Tel Aviv, we would not have installed the Shah of
>>Iran and trained him to oppress his people, so the Ayatollah
>>would not have come to power by overthrowing him. Thus, we would
>>not have had to arm Iraq to counter the religious fundamentalism
>>with a secular state ...
No, it is not - I question it, for one. Are you serious, or is the above
passage some sort of joke, Mr. Raven?
Mr. Raven - what do you say about the witnesses? The millions of witnesses,
Polish, German, Jew, Gypsy, Russian, Ukrainian, and others, who saw the camps?
Were they ALL lying?
Carl
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 80 Sat Mar 14, 1992
GRAFFITI at 14:28 EST
Note: 4 messages have been deleted for being personal attacks on other private
forum members. Please refrain from name-calling, and keep a civil tone in
public debate. Thank you.
-Ric/PF*NPC
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 81 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:46 EST
Carl: Did you really expect a Holocaust Denier to have heard any of Gilbert
and Sullivan? After all, Gilbert was a Jew....and a good Jew, too. :-) (For
anyone not familiar with G&S, the above line about Gilbert is a paraphrase
from one of the operettas about a "judge and a good judge, too.")
Raven: Let's not be going all over the place. Let's try to have some
organization. First, do you believe that there was an extermination program?
If you don't believe there was one then that is the place to start and not
with the gas chambers. There could certainly have been an extermination
program without having been gas chambers but there could not have been gas
chambers without there having been an extermination program. Therefore, the
extermination program (unless you agree that there was one) is the point to
start. After all, you are aware that the gas chambers weren't the only means
of extermination used, aren't you?
So, in your next series of messages, please answer the following simple
question: Do you believe that there was an extermination program conducted by
the Nazis against various peoples primarily Jews?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 82 Sat Mar 14, 1992
K.GREGOVIC [Costa] at 14:53 EST
Mr Raven:
Do you think any Jews were exterminated by the Nazi's, and if so, what is your
estimate of the number killed?
Just an add on to the Jim Keegtra case in Alberta, Canada, his appeal was over
turned and a re-trial has been set. He is accused of teaching hate literature
to High school students.
PROGOGANDA: IDEAS, FACTS, OR ALLEGATIONS SPREAD DELIBERATELY TO FURTHER ONE'S
CAUSE OR TO DAMAGE AN OPPOSING CAUSE. Your comments are of a damaging variety.
PS- Do you believe in the New World Order? I think I know the answer to that
one.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 83 Sat Mar 14, 1992
GSCOTT-MOORE [Gerry] at 15:33 EST
\\\---
As M.FEINS so aptly put it, I would like to echo:
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
\\\--- Gerry
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 84 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:55 EST
to H.WILSON11,
"Ignore the Energy Beast"? I haven't read any sci-fi since I was a pre-teen,
so I don't follow you on that one. But if you mean that Mr. Raven's messages
should be ignored and not responded to, I just don't think that will happen.
Already so much interest has been elicited from his topic that there is NO way
it will be met with by silence.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 85 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:58 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Thankyou for answering the questions I posed, they did help me quite a lot.
Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Butz, Leuchter, and the others. And I
did address my question to "The Raven" rather than to you. Please let HIM
answer them, thankyou.
Ok. Mr. Raven, perhaps YOU can tell me who Butz and Leuchter are, or sum up
their ideas re the holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 86 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:00 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN24,
I'm sorry, but I don't know what the "code phrases" are that you referred to.
I am trying to take an absolutely objective and unbiased approach to this
discussion, and taking what Mr. Raven is saying at face value. I don't want
to "read into" or "translate" his words, but just accept them as they are. Is
that unreasonable? And so far, I haven't heard him say anything anti-semitic
or pro-Nazi.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 87 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:01 EST
To POOH.BAH,
No, I am not Mr. Raven in disguise. If you have a look at the E-mail
directory, you will see that we are in different states altogether. Cheap
shot?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 88 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:06 EST
To RTRAYNOR,
Mr. Raven has not been "raving" as you allege, and nor have I. He is just
making points, and I have merely been asking for a bare modicum of tolerance
to be displayed by those who disagree with him. HE HAS A RIGHT TO SPEAK JUST
AS EVERYBODY ELSE DOES.
Such a minimum of tolerance is in no way "exaggerated". Let me put it to you
this way. Let's say that RTRAYNOR started a topic insisting that the
holocaust happened. Then a whole mob of people launched an avalanche of
messages containing insults and invective at him, attempting to drown his
words out and intimidate him into leaving the topic altogether. I would be
the first one to come to his assistance and INSIST that he have a right to
speak out and demand that the mob show some tolerance. Wouldn't that be fair?
I know that the holocaust excites emotions and passions, but it is still an
area of history, and all areas of history, ancient or modern, experience
different interpretations. So let's hear what Mr. Raven has to say.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 89 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:08 EST
To M.FEINS,
I was under the impression that you wanted Mr. Raven's messages to be met with
silence, but since reading that message I see that you have put up a number of
others (messages 63, 76, 78) and no doubt there are more to come.
Please explain.
What is this "silence"? Who is meant to be silent? And are you excepted from
this new rule?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 90 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:10 EST
To RTRAYNOR,
Yes, a quick glance at the e-mail directory will show that Mr. Raven and I are
two different persons. Unless of course, he has extremely long legs and arms
and can operate two different computers in two different states at the same
time!
Just because I asked for leeeeeetle bit of tolerance, I am accused of being
HIM in "disguise". Incredible paranoia........ But thanks for pointing out
the directory thing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 91 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:13 EST
To C.FINK4,
Do you have something against my name? Am I supposed to change it just to
satisfy you, because you think it is a mere "address label"? Just because I
ask for a little bit of tolerance towards Mr. Raven's messages, my name is
attacked. Unreal. What's next?
I promise I won't say anything about YOUR name, Mr. FINK. I will not stoop to
that. Please let us stick to the topic under discussion, the holocaust. Mr.
Raven is trying to make some points and I think you are digressing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 92 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:17 EST
To whoever criticised the question that I had posed for Mr. Raven, I'm sorry
but I can't recall your name.
I am sorry if I asked the wrong questions about the holocaust. Perhaps you
could help us all if you detail WHICH questions we are not allowed to ask, and
which questions we ARE allowed to ask. I didn't realize that a discussion of
the holocaust had boundaries or parameters that were not to be crossed or
transgressed. Strange, but I thought that every area of history was wide open
and even that ALL questions were encouraged so as to get at the historical
truth. Is the holocaust an exception to this?
If you could just give us all a list of which to ask and not ask, thankyou.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 94 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 19:36 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 96 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:44 EST
Rungu: First, Carl Fink was pointing out to you that YOU were playing games
with MY name with your Winnie-the-Pooh comment. So, please spare us the
martyrdom regarding names. You have not been attacked....unless you consider
being questioned as to whether you and Raven are one and the same an attack.
Around these parts, that is usually considered a fair question when two
"names" have the same posting style (including multiple messages). I have to
admit that I do not believe that you and Greg are not in league. You feed him
the questions and he is supposed to answer them. Part of the reason that I
believe this is that thus far you have asked only questions for which
Holocaust Deniers have pat answers. The Anne Frank part was what did
it....including you posting the false info that she was gassed when everyone
knows that she died of typhus.
Now, I love the way that you champion free speech and then ask me not to
answer your questions but to allow Greg to answer them. Me thinks that there
is a conflict there. Just because _I_ answer one of your questions does not
preclude Greg from also chimming in with a reply. So, please, stand by your
stated principles and allow me my freedom of speech.
You claim that you haven't seen anything that Greg has posted which is "pro-
Nazi." Didn't you catch his message in which he declared that Hitler was a
great man....and greater than Churchill and FDR combined? Most would consider
THAT to be pro-Nazi. What would your definition be of "pro-Nazi?"
I have already posted about Leuchter. The man is a fraud. He was not qualified
in Canada as an expert witness (I quoted the court ruling uptopic on that) and
he was criminally charged (and plea bargained) for practicing engineering
without a license. In fact, as part of the plea bargain, he is no longer allow
to distribute any reports or materials claiming to be an engineer. The
Leuchter Report does just that. Hmmm.....
What about Butz? Will, dear old Arthur is on the CS and engineering faculty of
Northwestern. Yet, he attempted to write a "history" whereas Leuchter, who
does have a BA in history, attempted to write an "engineering" report. Maybe
this tells us the problem with Holocaust Denial....they have everything
backwards!
But, Butz loses all credibility on the first page of his Foreward. There he
states: "Liberal and conservative publicists, though they have very different
attitudes toward World War II and America's entry into it, and though they
squabble with each other on almost everything else, close ranks on the reality
of the 'holocaust.' [sic]" In this quote, Butz is mixing apples and oranges.
Liberal and conservative publicists also "close ranks" on the REALITY of WWII!
However, liberal and conservative publicists DO actively and loudly debate the
causes, ramifications, etc. of the Holocaust. Have you ever heard of the noisy
debate between the Intentionalists and the Functionalists?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 101 Sat Mar 14, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 20:29 EST
86 M.RUNGU:
"I don't know what the 'code phrases are that you referred to. I am trying to
take an absolutely objective and unbiased approach to this discussion..."
Mr. Rungu: If you are truly interested in bringing such an enlightened mind
set to this discussion (as seems highly dubious at this juncture), you should
do so. Your denial of "code phrases" is hardly objective and unbiased: it
merely illustrates your ignorance. If you really care to be "absolutely
objective and unbiased," then you should ASK when you DO NOT KNOW.
This having been stated, I'll give you the first batch of "code phrase"
lexicology for free -- no request necessary.
"The Zionist-Masonic conspiracy" = "Those damn Jews, and their plot to take
over the world." (from the Russian rhetorical lexicon)
"Liquidiation" = "Murder"
"Resettlement" = "Deportation and confiscation of property"
"The Jewish-Bolshevik plot" = "Those damn Jews, and their alliance with the
Soviet Communists (even though they hate them, too)." From the Nazi
"Criminal Zionist entity" = "Israel"
"Zionist thugs" = "Israelis, especially their leaders"
Even the least-educated student of history (someone like yourself, for
instance), should be aware of the enormously powerful role played by
propaganda and euphemism.
The world -- especially the Russians and the Nazis, and to a (relatively)
lesser degree, the Arabs -- has outdone itself in creating such a lexicon of
rhetorical euphemism for Jews and all our "sinister plots."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 104 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 22:10 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 105 Sat Mar 14, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:05 EST
>>Do you have something against my name? Am I supposed to change it
>>just to satisfy you, because you think it is a mere "address
>>label"? Just because I ask for a little bit of tolerance towards
>>Mr. Raven's messages, my name is attacked. Unreal. What's next?
Yes, quite unreal, since I didn't attack your name. If you perceived it as
an attack, I apologize. All that I meant was that M.RUNGU is probably not
your favored form of address - I doubt that people at work say, "Hey, M.RUNGU,
why don't we have pizza for lunch?" I asked that you select and use to sign
your message some more common form of address. No offense meant.
By the way, M.RUNGU, the phrase "common carrier" has a specific legal
meaning, which GEnie does not fit.
>> ...I have as much _right_ to post my views as anyone!
Tony, you certainly do, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. On the other
hand, I have the right to disagree vehemently - and I do.
Again - those who are too offended to participate can simply...not
participate. Those who feel strong enough to answer these vile, despicable
lies, can and will do so. By closing debate, GEnie would be giving the
impression that the Deniers have some sort of secrets that the Powers That Be
cannot bear to have publicized, exactly the impression the Deniers want to
give. By letting legitimate experts like POOH.BAH debunk them, you hurt them
far more.
Ah, Dov, we meet again. Read the above paragraph - your attempt at
supression only helps the Deniers. On the other hand, you are correct, the
Constitution does not directly apply here - GEnie can post what it
collectively pleases.
As I mentioned uptopic, I'm a member of the ACLU. Yes, I would let the KKK
or the Nazi Party have a forum here. I truly believe that supressing ideas is
both evil and ineffective.
Carl
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 109 Sun Mar 15, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 01:05 EST
I repeat here (more or less) some E-mail that I sent Tony (TR) yesterday.
About a year ago, the Asian History professor at my school, with whom I work
closely, but who knows virtually nothing about Judaism, requested that our
library eliminate from its collection its copies of the infamous "Protocols of
the Elders of Zion." Our Jewish chaplain, whose opinion I supported, insisted
that the books should stay. The reason for this, quite simply, was that it is
better to have the evil out here in broad daylight for all to see, rather than
ignoring it, and letting it work its insidious way through the dark.
Rebbe:
In nearly all cases I would defer to the good judgment of the Rebbe: in this
one, however, I cannot. Better to let the animals spew their poison in
public, than to drive them into underground lairs; better to let the people
see for themselves the evil than tojust to hear about it.
NOBODY TEACHES ABOUT THE HORRORS OF ANTI-SEMITISM BETTER THAN ANTI-SEMITES
THEMSELVES!!!!!
Tuvia David ben-Rafel ha-Kohen Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 111 Sun Mar 15, 1992
H.WILSON11 at 01:28 EST
It's in the Sci-Fi RT, not any writings.
And, yes, I think you're correct in saying that people will respond to
Raven's ravings>sigh>
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 112 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:50 EST
Raven: I'm afraid that my last question to you might have gotten lost in the
jumble of the "should this topic exist" discussion. Therefore, let me repeat
it here.
Do you believe that there was a Nazi program before or during WWII to
exterminate various peoples, in particular the Jews?
As I stated before but will paraphrase here, a discussion of the gas chambers
would be putting the cart before the horse if your answer to the above
question is in the negative since there can't be gas chambers without the
extermination program but there could be an extermination program without the
gas chambers. Therefore, if your answer is in the negative to the above
question, it would behoove us to discuss the extermination program first.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 113 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:51 EST
Raven: As an afterthought, I should probably state that I have evidence that
there was an extermination program AND that gas chambers did, in fact, exist.
Therefore, I would answer in the positive to the question that I asked you.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 114 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:56 EST
I would like to take a brief moment to thank whoever handles things around
here (GEnie?) for retitling this topic, for their even-handed description,
and for allowing this exchange of ideas. Now if I could only figure out why
GEnie gives me 2 carriage returns when I request two!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 115 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:56 EST
To Dave Friedman (and J.Weiler4)--- First of all, you have made an
unsupportable assumption, that being that there are 6 million "missing" Jews.
In fact, the number of Jews that cannot be accounted for is somewhere around
500,000, or roughly 11 percent of the Jewish population that remained in the
territories occupied by Germany during the war. By way of comparison,
somewhere around 12 percent of the Jews in the occupied territories who were
never molested by the Nazis (that is, never captured, arrested, etc.) died of
natural causes. Thus, during the war years, the number of natural deaths in
the Jewish community in occupied Europe was roughly equal to the number of
ALL the missing Jews who were captured by the Nazis. --- By the way, roughly
80 percent of the Jews in the occupied territories were never molested by the
Nazis, and this figure is in addition to the many many thousands who
emigrated. --- Therefore, the answer to your question is: "Nothing happened to
them."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 116 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:57 EST
To Pooh.bah --- Were Jews executed or exterminated just for being Jewish? It
is possible that there were some executions of Jews as Jews by the
Einsatzgruppen, just as there were many MANY atrocities against Germans
before, during, and after WWII, just because they were German. The
Einsatzgruppen, which only operated for a short period of time, was in charge
of controlling occupied areas in the east between the period of time when the
lands were occupied and that time when a provisional government could be set
up. Communist-inspired partisans initiated guerilla warfare, which almost
guarantees civilian casualties ... much like the Vietnamese casualties at the
hands of American soldiers. Although less than ideal, there were outrages on
BOTH sides, and a few executions here and there is a far cry from mass
extermination.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 118 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:57 EST
To D.Kaufmann1 --- The so-called "confession" of Rudolf Hoess would be flawed
if one was only holding against it the errors it contains. However, the fact
that it was extracted by torture invalidates the entire matter. Also, you
might be interested to know that in America (and Germany, too, I believe),
even confessions must be proven to be accurate. During the War Crimes trials,
jurisprudences was out the window, and the resulting kangaroo court paid
scant attention to niceties such as justice. Looking at it another way, if
this so-called confession was not extracted by torture, then how do you
explain the many errors; and if it was extracted by torture (or forged in
whole or in part), why should it have any credence at all?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 119 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:58 EST
To Pooh.bah --- You know as well as I do that the Balfour Declaration calls
for a homeland for the Jews, NOT a Jewish state, and it specifically says
that this homeland not come at the expense of the people already in
Palestine. This is a far cry from a "green light" to move into Palestine and
start slaughtering Arabs. Furthermore, one might ask why the British, one of
the most imperialistic groups ever, have the right to dictate to the
Palestinians what to do with their lands, their borders, etc. The fact that
the Balfour Declaration was not enough for Zionists to get what they wanted
is proved by the fact that they helped start WWII in order to further their
drive toward Palestine, and committed many atrocities against the Germans,
the Arabs, the British, and probably others, along the way.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 120 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:58 EST
To Pooh.bah --- I know I have something somewhere about the 1945 forensic
test, I just can't put my hands on it at the moment. However, even without
referring to it I believe I am safe in saying that you have misrepresented
it, and that this test does NOT show that there were mass gassings at
Birkenau (site of Krema II). --- And as for a a court case "proving" that
Zuendel knew he was spreading lies, that is of course ridiculous. As you must
know, Zuendel believes there was no Holocaust. To say that a jury found him
guilty of not believing is to tell us that the members of the jury were mind-
readers (albeit poor ones!). Zuendel's trial was a typical show trial in the
Soviet mold.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 121 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:59 EST
To Tony (TR) --- I understand how one might find Holocaust revisionism
distressing, but look at it from my point of view, if you can. I, as an
intelligent and caring person, honestly and truly feel that the Holocaust
never happened. Therefore, all the Germans who were murdered after the war,
and all the Germans who were brutally mistreated after the war, and all the
Germans who continue to be maligned since the war, are all innocent victims
of a hoax. This arouses my compassion. And because the spectre of the
Holohoax is yet before us, I can still do something to right this almost
immeasurable wrong.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 122 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 02:25 EST
M.RUNGU/G.RAVEN (If you aren't the same person, you are acting in concert,
they good cop/bad cop interaction, identical posting style, and identiacal
catch-phrasing make obvious this is a scripted exchange)
My father liberated several camps, none of the nig ones, he saw what
happned. I personaly know 4 Holocaust surviros, 2 from Ashwitz. I know what
happened.
there is literally TONS of evicinde. You on the pother hand have yet to
provide ANYTHING more than sweeping denails, and shouts of "is not is not is
not". Prove your poinsts of shut up.
BW Remember 2 years ago the "Insititute for historical Review" the mouthpeice
ofe the WAR/ANC anti-holocaust campaign had advertised they would pay $10
million to anyone who could prove the holocaust happened.?
Several people did just that. They, usieng your technique merely shouted,
it's not true. whereupon they took the IHR to federal court and sued.
after reviewing all the arguments and facts on all sides, the Courts said
that the plaintifs had unarguably proved the hlocaust was an historical fact
which no ration person could deny. how do you explain that away? Are you
going to declare that the "Zionists" hold our courts hostage?
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 123 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:40 EST
Raven: It is interesting that you perpetrate the defense that Christie used in
the Zundel trial (i.e. that the jury can't read a man's mind and, therefore,
cannot know if Zundel knew he was spreading lies). The problem with that
reasoning is that it was proven in court that both the Holocaust historians
AND the Holocaust Deniers believe certain portions of the pamphlet that was
being disseminated (and resulted in the trial) to be false. Much of the
pamphlet depended upon the work of Rassinier and even Weber testified to
Rassinier's shortcomings. For instance, Weber agreed that Harwood (the
pseudonym of the author of the pamphlet) was wrong on the numbers of Jews
exterminated and stated that these errors were derived from Rassinier.
You must remember that the trial was not whether Zundel does or does not
believe the Holocaust but, rather, whether it was reasonable to expect Zundel
to know that the pamphlet did contain lies. After all, in that pamphlet, to
"prove" the numbers killed, Harwood/Verrall depended upon some very strange
figures. For instance, he included the Jews in Turkey after WWII to "prove"
that there were many Jews left alive in Europe. Now, it doesn't take a
historian or genius to know that Turkey is NOT in Europe and, therefore, these
numbers make his argument meaningless.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 124 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:43 EST
Mike: You have some facts a little out of whack. The reward offered by the IHR
was for $50,000 and not $10 million. There was one person who successfully
sued...not a group. The final award was for $90,000.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 126 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:51 EST
Raven: There are many topic on this board in which to discuss Israel. Let's
try not to mix apples and oranges in this one by including it here. As far as
the 1945 forensic study on Krema II, that is again putting the cart before the
horse. You have not answered my direct question yet.
Do you believe that the Nazis had an extermination program before or during
WWII directed against various peoples, primarily the Jews?
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. You apparently tried to give some sort of
answer to this question in #116. However, having already been accused of being
"Winnie-the-Pooh" by your co-poster, I guess that I have to admit, in this
case, to being a "bear of very little brain" in that I couldn't for the life
of me decide if you were saying that there WAS an extermination program or
not.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 127 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 03:10 EST
Pooh.Bah
Ok, I got my infor off of Relay-Net, so it is quite possible it was not 100%
accurate as to figres. However the important part was that the Federal courts
have ruled that proof exists.
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 128 Sun Mar 15, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 03:11 EST
I want to applaud and support Pooh Bah's calm and rational approach to this
topic. Of course, it's revolting. I'm of Jewish descent, and it turns my
stomach to think about it, though our humanity should be such that any
atrocity, such as the Cambodian genocide, should so affect us. But as volatile
and emotional as the situation is, we play into the hands of the enemies of
truth when we let emotion and vituperation overmaster us.
Pooh Bah has asked that the meta-discussion of whether there should even be a
discussion of these claims be in a separate topic. I agree; it clouds and
diffuses the issue here. Therefore, I have started Topic 7 for that very
purpose.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 129 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 03:14 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 131 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:25 EST
Mike: It was a California court and not a federal court that ruled that the
gassing of Jews at Auschwitz is "simply a fact." The judge was Thomas Johnson.
And, now, back to our regularly scheduled topic. Greg Raven, do you believe
that the Nazis planned and executed an extermination program during WWII
against various peoples, primarily the Jews?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 132 Sun Mar 15, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 04:57 EST
It's an interesting question, Pooh-Bah. Considering that Raven has a
habit of putting each answer in an individual post, it's tough to
imagine that he missed it entirely. I rather think, however, that the
Socratic method is going to be lost here.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 133 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 05:21 EST
Bevan: Still, I don't think it is too much to ask of Greg that he supply a
simple "yes" or "no" to the question of whether he believes that the Nazis had
an extermination program during WWII to liquidate various peoples, primarily
the Jews.
Raven: There has been a new topic opened now for discussion of whether you and
I should be discussing the Holocaust in this fashion. Hopefully, that will
allow us to get down to the facts as they appear in the primary documents
(i.e. those documents produced by the Nazis before and during their time in
power....including memos, reports, speeches, etc.).
So, as soon as you answer my simple question regarding your belief in a Nazi
extermination program, we will be able to begin.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 135 Sun Mar 15, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 11:30 EST
>>Now if I could only figure out why GEnie gives me 2 carriage
>>returns when I request two!
That CAN'T be what you meant?
>>This is a far cry from a "green light" to move into Palestine and
>>start slaughtering Arabs.
Is this your summary of the history of Israel? I've gotten in trouble for
criticizing Israel myself, but this is hardly a complete description of
Israel's existence.
>>...is proven by the fact that they helped start WWII in order to
>>further their drive toward Palestine, and committed many atrocities
>>against the Germans, the British, ...
Excuse me? Zionists started WWII? Can you document that?
Oh, as long as Pooh keeps hitting her question: the witnesses, Raven? What
do you say about the millions of witnesses? Are they all members of the
world's largest conspiracy?
Carl
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 137 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.FEINS at 12:44 EST
Thank you Ric for the fine evaluation of a sad topic and PF*NPC policy.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 138 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 13:09 EST
P.NANSON: The "bad press" that Prodigy got was for allowing Holocaust Denial
but not allowing rebuttal. It was requested that rebuttal be allowed and, if
Prodigy couldn't see their way clear to do that, then Denial shouldn't be
allowed either. The press only picked up the second point but Prodigy did pick
up the first and mended their ways.
Now, Denial and rebuttal are allowed and the Holocaust Deniers over there have
been reduced to complaining that primary sources are being used by those who
are rebutting, bragging that they (the Deniers) only use secondary sources
(and sometimes teritary), and, when things get really rough for them, they
have even resorted to posting a single line of: "Liar. Liar. Pants on fire!"
Oh well, Raven are you prepared to give me a simple "yes" or "no" to my
question? Do you believe that there was a Nazi extermination program during
WWII which targetted various peoples, primarily the Jews?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 142 Sun Mar 15, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 15:26 EST
G-d Bless Paul Nanson and let the collaborators explain. I am going to save
your message Paul and use it, bl"n, as a macro daily as long as this topic
exists.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 144 Sun Mar 15, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 16:57 EST
I am curious as to why the Neo-Nazi movement holds it to be of such great
importance to discredit the holocaust story. Raven, are you torn between, on
one hand, your great admiration for Adolph Hitler, and on the other hand some
human moral repulsion at the (generally accepted) practical results of a Nazi
regime? If you became convinced the Holocaust was fact; would this demand
that you abandon your admiration of Hitler? Would you agree that if
(contrary to your current opinion) the Holocaust is indeed fact; that fact
would be in of and by itself reason to thorughly discredit Hitler and Nazism?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 146 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.FEINS at 17:56 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 147 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:13 EST
To POOH.BAH,
I have to disagree with you that "everybody knows that Anne Frank died of
Typhus". I have asked a number of educated people about Anne Frank. They
were ALL familiar with her diary, although they hadn't all read it. ALL of
them said that she had been gassed at Auschwitz. When I asked them how did
they know this, they looked puzzled and just said they learned about it on
"tv".
Such is the power of the mass media. I too thought that she had been gassed,
or rather I should say that I ASSUMED that, because my distinct impression
from the mass media is that ALL or most of the Jews who died during the war
had been gassed.
So if Anne died from typhus rather than having been gassed, how many Jews died
from gassing, and how many from typhus, and how many from other causes. Can
you give me a statistical breakdown and also your sources?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 148 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:19 EST
To POOH.BAH,
I agree with you that YOUR freedom of speech is just as important as Mr.
Raven's. You made a good point, by the way, about Butz being the engineering
expert while Leuchter is the professional trained historian, and each doing
work in the other's field.
I have learned, however, that Butz claimed that he tackled this historical
area (the holocaust) because "establishment historians" were too 'chicken' to
do so and had thus ducked their professional responsibilities in this area.
He claimed that it was consequently up to amateurs to do the research on the
holocaust.
Leuchter, on the other hand, is apparently a "gas chamber expert" who has been
the number 1 consultant to America's various prison authorities on gas chamber
design, operation, and specifications. This suggests to me that he is an
excellent person to be doing 'on-site' research at Auschwitz and Birkenau.
By the way, I was able to get copies of Butz's ("THE HOAX OF THE 20TH
CENTURY") and Leuchter's ("THE LEUCHTER REPORT") books in the mail. I've only
read parts of them so far, but they look quite interesting. Not at all
crackpot.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 151 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:29 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14,
I am not an ignorant person, unless you equate "ignorance" with political and
intellectual tolerance. Strange how the insult you directed at me was not
censored...
Concerning the "code phrases", the interpretations and definitions you gave
reflect your own viewpoints and perspectives, and not necessarily those of
whoever is supposedly expressing these "code phrases". I prefer to hear
whatever is being said directly from the original source, not from somebody
else "interpreting" and "translating" their comments or writings. There is
too great a danger of distortion or of selective interpretation otherwise.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 155 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:41 EST
To M.BURHANS1,
I didn't know the IHR had offered "10 million dollars" for anybody who could
prove the holocaust. The way I heard it, they had offered 50,000 dollars for
anybody who could prove that gassings and specifically gassings, took place.
My understanding is that a certain Mel Mermelstein challenged them on this and
in during the court proceedings the Judge on the bench "took judicial notice"
of the holocaust strictly in the sense that since it was widely believed and
widely accepted, it (i.e. the court) would accept it.
Such "judicial notice" in no way proves anything at all, except perhaps that
we are witnessing a Judge basing his legal decisions on public opinion. The
court is not and cannot ever be the proper place to decide historical issues
such as the holocaust, and we all know this.
By the way, I understand that Mr. Mermelstein just recently lost a court
battle with the Institute for Historical Review. Does this "prove" that the
holocaust did NOT take place? Of course not. What we are talking about here
is a situation in which certain people and certain groups appear to be trying
to use our court system to silence those persons and those groups that
question aspects of the holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 156 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:47 EST
To G.RAVEN,
I have been reading your messages and to me at least they appear quite
rational and controlled. Not at all "raving" as someone else characterizes
them.
Your comments about the atrocities ring true. There is no question that Jews
died during WWII. Some died of typhus, some were shot in the Warsaw Ghetto
uprising, and many thousands were undoubtedly killed by the native eastern
european populations in uprisings that occurred as the Germans swept the
Soviets eastward.
It is also true that atrocities took place on ALL sides. The allies committed
a massacre at Dachau at the war's end. The Soviets sunk several ships in the
Baltic near the end of the war that took the lives of many thousands. The
allies fire-bombed Dresden (killing possibly as many as 250,000 people) and
Hamburg (scores of thousands more). The Soviets killed 5-6,000,000 German
civilians in the closing months of the war and in the immediate postwar
period.
The war itself was a "holocaust" and I don't think it proper for ONE
particular group to monopolise this term "holocaust" nor do I think it proper
for that group to characterise any mention of the sufferings of anyone else to
be a "trivilialization" of the "holocaust".
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 159 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:57 EST
147 Rungu: BTW, is there something easier that I can call you other than
"Rungu?" And would that be Mr./Mrs./Ms.?
You made an excellent point that you ASSUMED [emphasis yours] that most Jews
had been exterminated in gas chambers based upon mass media. I guess that is a
good reason to have history courses in school, right? And, I guess, that's why
most bookstores have a little thing called a history section and why
historians write for general audiences as well as for scholarly journals. It
is too bad that you have apparently depended upon mass media for this type of
information. I guess that it's true what they say about what happens when one
assumes....except that I have been spared that fate. :-)
As far as numbers, I believe that if one single person was killed because of
their race, religion, creed, gender, physical/mental disability or sexual
orientation that it would be too much. Therefore, I have not independently
investigated the numbers. For that information I usually rely upon Raul
Hilberg's excellent Appendix B in his three volume set "The Destruction of
European Jews." What follows, then, is his break down of the figures.
Ghettoization and general privation over 800,000
Open-air shootings over 1,300,000
Camps up to 3,000,000
TOTAL 5,100,000
Now, it should be added that not all the deaths in the camps were from
gassings. Some were from disease, starvation, forced labor, medical
experiments, etc. In the six extermination camps, Hilberg estimates that there
were up to 2,700,000 who died there. Once again, some of these were from
gassings but not all.
Although I don't agree with everything in Hilberg's 3 volume set, this
Appendix is the best study I've seen to date on the numbers, how they are
calculated, etc.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 160 Sun Mar 15, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 19:58 EST
M.Rungu:
I wasn't insulting you by calling you ignorant. I was stating a fact. Perhaps
that's why it didn't get "censored. " Rebbe:
I agree with you 200% that people should be able to recognize for themselve s
that murder is an abomination, along with Anti-Semitism. Nevertheless, if
everybody realized this, these problems wouldn't exist. The only way to
REALLY appreciate a horror is to see it firsthand. This ain't quite
firsthand, but it's close enough.
AUSCHWITZ Praised MAJDANEK Be DACHAU the L-rd BERGEN-BELSEN Praised BIRKENAU
Be BUCHENWALD the L-rd THEREISENSTAD Praised TREBLINKA Be WARSAHthe L-rd
Dave Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 162 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:10 EST
148 Rungu: Are "establishment historians" too "chicken"? Exactly what is an
"establishment historian?" Bradley Smith made a similar claim in an interview
in 1988 that was published in the L.A. Free Weekly. There he said that he just
wanted to "help historians because they don't have the character to do this
themselves." Now that is laudable but not too credible when in the same
interview he stated that he wasn't "interested in what happened 45 years ago."
Add to that his statement on the first page of his book: "I've never been
interested in intellectual work; it takes too long" and we start seeing the
crux of the problem.
But, what about these "establishment historians" whoever they are? Have you
heard of the INTENTIONALISTS and the FUNCTIONALISTS? Both groups might be
considered "establishment historians" and they certainly do not have the same
view as to the causes and the execution of the Holocaust. However, as I
pointed out in a previous message, Butz tries to mix apples and oranges by
comparing difference in attitude toward WWII and America's involvement in it
against "closing ranks" on the REALITY of the Holocaust.
And, his claim that the "establishment historians" are "chicken" might seem
credible if he had developed his theory based upon some fact he uncovered or
some document that he viewed with a different interpretation. But, since you
have his book, you know that that is NOT what caused him to develop his
theory, is it?
"Noting the obvious ways in which this legend [the Holocaust] is exploited in
contemporary politics, notably in connection with the completely illogical
support that the U.S. extends to Israel, I had long had lingering doubts about
it..."
It was his political ideology that was the motivating factor behind his theory
and not scholarship. That does not bode well, then, for his credibility in
this matter. Also, it should be noted that he made the above statement back in
the late 70's.....long before the Cold War was over. Hmmm.....
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 163 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:22 EST
148 Rungu: What, in your opinion, should be the credentials for an "expert" in
gas chambers?
Leuchter criminally practiced engineering without a license and was not able
to be qualified by the Canadian court. Now his criminal charges come from MA
so that means that TWO countries recognize that he is not credentialed.
Be that as it may, he has a BA in history but no other degree. He claims to
have designed and built a "very precise lethal injections system" but has
never conducted an execution (9200), built Delaware's gallows (9201), had
designed a gas chamber but it was not built nor installed yet in MO (9202) and
had not designed or built any other gas chamber (9202).
Besides that, he has never witnessed an execution using poison gas (9202-
9203) and has never studied chemistry, physic, math beyond the college level
and has never taken any toxicology courses.
BTW, the numbers in () represent the page(s) of the court transcript from
which I got the information. The court case, of course, was the second Zundel
trial in Toronto.
Now, just venturing a rough guess, I would expect an "expert" in gas chambers
to have designed, built and installed at least one; studied toxicology to be
able to effectively do the above; and, have some sort of engineering degree
or, at least, a degree in one of the sciences.
Therefore, I have a difficult time classifying Leuchter as an "expert" even if
I ignore that he is a criminal for falsely representing himself as one.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 164 Sun Mar 15, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 20:35 EST
M.Rungu:
"Are the Sysops stormtroopers with whips and jjackboots?"
Perhaps you'd feel more at home???
D.FRIEDMAN14
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 165 Sun Mar 15, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 20:36 EST
#156 M.RUNGU
Now we have the "We didn't do it, and anyway, you did it too" argument.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 166 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:37 EST
155 Rungu: Ah, I already corrected Mike's faulty facts but he did have the
gist right and now, I am going to have to correct not only your FACTS but your
gist.
What was the "judicial notice?" In the Mermelstein vs IHR, Liberty Lobby,
Willis A. Carto, Elisabeth Carto, Noontide Press, et al case, there was an
agreement reached between the parties that the judge could evaluate the
evidence and render a "judicial notice" and all parties would accept said
notice. The following is the part of the judicial notice which the parties
acknowledged when they signed it as part of their formal apology to Mel
Mermelstein:
"Whereas, on October 9, 1981, the PARTIES in dispute in the litigation filed
CROSS-MOTIONS for summary judgement resulting in the court, per the Honorable
Thomas T. Johnson, taking judicial notice as follows:
"'Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this Court does take judicial notice of
the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in
Poland during the summer of 1944.' and 'It is simply is a fact that falls
within the definition of Evidence Code Section 452(h). It is not reasonably
subject to dispute. And it is capable of immediate and accurate determination
by resort to sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy. It is simply a
fact.'"
Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about it being a matter of commonly
held belief or public opinion. The emphasis in the first paragraph is mine to
indicate that both sides filed motions to be considered. Also, the gassings
per the judicial notice are "capable of immediate and accurate determination
by resort to sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy."
So, your facts are not quite right and your gist of the decision is all wrong.
BTW, the other case to which you referred regarding Mermelstein had absolutely
nothing to do with the Holocaust. It was a suit for malicious prosecution
resulting from a suit that Carto and company filed against Mel for liable. So,
even though you don't have the facts correct in that case either, it is not
"on topic" here since it doesn't concern any aspect of the Holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 167 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:44 EST
Is there any chance that we can now get back to our regularly scheduled TOPic?
If so, I will expand my previous question and direct it to EITHER Raven or
Rungu (since Rungu's latest messages indicate that he/she/it has more
knowledge and wasn't really just asking questions....anyone surprised? >g>).
Raven and/or Rungu: Do either of you believe that the Nazis had an
extermination program during WWII with the intention of destroying various
peoples, primarily the Jews?
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Your answer will give us an excellent
starting point for an "open debate." After all, that's what you want, right?
If not, please inform dear old Bradley about that....and tell him that now he
REALLY needs to lose some weight. He is has to weigh much more than the 240 he
claims in his book.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 169 Sun Mar 15, 1992
P.NANSON at 21:45 EST
Re: Message 161
RUNGU;
Are you a member of any Nazi, Klan or other White Supremicist organization?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
RAVEN or RUNGU;
Do either of you believe that the Nazis had an extermination program during
World War II with the intention of destroying various peoples, primarily the
Jews?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 172 Sun Mar 15, 1992
GSCOTT-MOORE [Gerry] at 22:33 EST
\\\---
As my final post in the revolting converse, I would like again quote again
M.FEINS (as if sheer repetition could accomplish anything at all) and from the
heart:
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
Joining others in ignoring this lunacy:
\\\--- Gerry
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 176 Mon Mar 16, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 00:03 EST
AUSCHWITZ Praised MAJDANEK Be DACHAU the L-rd BERGEN-BELSEN Praised
BIRKENAU Be BUCHENWALD the L-rd THEREISENSTADT Praised TREBLINKA Be WARSAW the
L-rd
M.Rungu:
I add my voice to that of the questioner who asked if you're a klansman or
Nazi or anything groovy like that.
PS: What _does_ the M. stand for? Inquiring minds want to know.
D.FRIEDMAN14
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 178 Mon Mar 16, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric] at 00:27 EST
Administrative note: several messages have been moved from this topic to
topic 7, "Allow Holocaust Hoax Discussions?"
Please direct all followup messages dealing with whether this topic should be
here to that topic; messages here should focus on the existence of the
Holocaust itself. All messages appearing here from now on that should have
been posted in topic 7 will be moved there without notice. Thanks for your
cooperation, and for keeping your messages civil and non-abusive in this very
heated issue.
-Ric/PF*NPC
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 179 Mon Mar 16, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 00:48 EST
Constant repetition of that 'blessed memory' message is getting a
touch trite. Can you at least vary the words some?
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 181 Mon Mar 16, 1992
R.EATON3 at 01:11 EST
M.Rungu,
If the courtroom is NOT the place to decide such issues, why is it that
Holocaust Deniers such as Mr. Zuendel keep trying to get it there?
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 182 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:36 EST
To P.NANSON,
I will give answer to your intended insult/personal attack on my credibility.
NO, I do not belong to and am not a member of any Nazi, Klan or other white
supremacist organization. Not that you or anybody else would belive me, and
not that a person's private affiliations are anyone else's business.
Ok, it's my turn now. Are YOU, P.NANSON, a member or do you belong to any
Zionist, Jewish supremacist (e.g. the Anti-Defamation League), or otherwise
anti-Gentile organization. A rediculous question? No more so than yours, and
no more intrusive. If your question is intended to "expose" the motivations
of myself, so would mine. Uh-oh, woooops. I forgot. These kinds of questions
only ONE side is allowed to ask. I forgot about the double standard, sorry.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 183 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:41 EST
To C.FINK,
Am I to assume that a science teacher is supposed to be an exalted authority
on the holocaust? How so? Leuchter is a professional historian and THOSE
credentials have already been "rejected" by those who don't like his findings.
The qualifications of the many professional historians of the Institute for
Historical Review and it's Board of Advisers are similarly rejected and/or
ignored.
On the other hand, if a critic of the holocaust is NOT a professionally
trained historian, e.g. Prof. Arthur Butz, then his credibility is attacked on
that basis. So what it comes down to is: you can't win no matter WHAT one's
background.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 184 Mon Mar 16, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:44 EST
To John Stengel --- Your posting may be alright for an opening argument, but
as proof it has a LONG way to go. MOTIVE Hitler didn't like the way Jews
acted, and wrote about that in Mein Kampf. Henry Ford didn't like the way
Jews acted, and wrote about it. So did many other people. Big deal. What you
need is something official, like a signed order, for proof. You don't have it
because it doesn't exist. OPPORTUNITY Of the Jews known to be in Europe in
1939, roughly 80 percent of them were never "molested" by the Nazis, and
roughly 87 percent of them survived the war (whether through luck,
emigration, etc.). This leaves roughly 13 percent who are dead (of all
causes) or missing (of all causes). This represents a tremendous reduction in
the ability of the Nazis to murder 6 million Jews, as they NEVER had their
hands on that many of them (the total dead or missing appear to be about
500,000). WEAPON To say that the Nazi state was a weapon is some major-league
"wriggling," as you call it. In an American court of law, you have to produce
the weapon, show that it was capable of committing the alleged act, and that
it can be tested to show that it did in fact commit the act. This you cannot
do. CORPUS DELECTI Yes, and what about the corpses. If the Nazis buried their
dead, let's find the graves and count the bodies. If they burned their
victims, let's count the number of crematoria, find out how many total hours
they could have been at work, and then divide that number first by two and
then by three (the number of hours it takes a modern crematoria to complete
the first stage of the cremation process), to determine a ballpark figure for
the maximum possible number of corpses that could have been cremated. Then,
of course, we must subtract death from natural causes, death by disease,
death by legal execution, etc., to arrive at a rough estimate of the number
of possible victims. Have fun. One hint: you won't get anywhere near 6
million Jewish victims, and adding 5 million non-Jewish victims makes your
task yet more impossible (pencil out the numbers and you will see what I
mean).
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 185 Mon Mar 16, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:45 EST
To Carl Fink --- There is a difference between disapproving of the policies of
the state of Israel and being anti-Semitic (or, as you probably mean, anti-
Jewish). Your failure to distinguish between the two is symptomatic of the
disease to which this country has fallen prey.
Furthermore, we do not know that there were "millions of witnesses," as you
claim. We only have statements from a few thousand of them, and Yad Vashem,
of which you seem so proud, has stated that over half of their 20,000
survivor statements are outright lies. Additionally, there are many
statements to the effect that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz-
Birkenau, and no mass killings. But you never hear about these statements
because the victors get to write the history books, and these testimonies
have been sent to the memory hole.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 186 Mon Mar 16, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:46 EST
To Pooh.Bah --- Thank you for your organization in this matter. I admire your
approach. To me as an interested amateur, this subject seems almost
unfathomably immense (and complex). I welcome your initiative to bring order
to the chaos. --- You have suggested as a starting point that we consider the
question: Do you believe that there was an extermination program conducted by
the Nazis against various peoples primarily Jews? --- To which my answer is
"no." I believe what Hitler wanted to exterminate was Jewishness, which he
proposed to do by exporting the Jews from Europe to their own area. This is
hardly a laudable aim, but it is a far cry from mass murder. --- Because of
your previously-mentioned request, I will forego responding to the other
posts you have made (regarding Leuchter, etc.), until such time as we get
around to these subjects as part of our examination of this topic. If this is
unsatisfactory, please tell me which posts you would like responses to, and I
will provide them. --- Sorry, one more thing. I am only vaguely aware of the
schism between the Functionalists and the Intentionalists. If it is important
that I know this dichotomy, or if it offends you as a member of one group to
be lumped in with the other group, please enlighten me so I can at least make
an attempt to respond to you in a manner that reflects your true position.
Thanks.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 187 Mon Mar 16, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:46 EST
To K. Gregovic --- Do I believe in a New World Order? This is a complex
question, but for right now I will say "yes." However, if you wish to know if
I welcome, seek, admire, or desire a New World Order, the answer is an
emphatic "no."
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 188 Mon Mar 16, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:47 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14 --- Pooh.bah has suggested that we take this thing a step at a
time, so I will refrain from responding to your post about "code words" at
this time. I will, however, state that there are exterminationist historians
who have flatly stated that the Germans did not use code words (euphemisms)
to describe mass murder (Pressac being the example that pops readily to
mind). If Pooh.bah agrees that there were code words, then I am sure we will
deal with it in due course. If she does not, then I will be happy to discuss
this matter with you separate from the main discussion.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 189 Mon Mar 16, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:47 EST
To B.Willis3 --- I was not offering pamphlets solely to promote one side of
the Holocaust issue, but to help bring others up to speed on what the "other
side" is saying. I was hoping that, by making this offer, those less familiar
with the Holocaust debate than Pooh.bah might sooner grasp some of the
significant points of contention, and thus be able to focus their research in
those areas, which makes for a better discussion for us all.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 190 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:51 EST
To R.EATON,
The Canadian show trials of Ernst Zundel in 1985 and 1988 were not initiated
by Zundel; they were initiated by Sabina Citron of the so-called "Canadian
Holocaust Remembrance Association", utilising the "false news" law from the
1892 enactment of Canada's criminal code. The English had abolished the law in
1888 (it really dates back as far as 1275) but it somehow survives to this
day. What it shows is the great and desperate lengths to which various
persons and organizations will go to to silence offending voices like that of
Mr. Zundel.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 191 Mon Mar 16, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:53 EST
To Carl Fink --- You are correct ... I did not mean to say that GEnie was
giving me two carriage returns when I asked for two. My original message was
butchered dduring my attempt to edit it, and a line was dropped. At any rate,
I seem to have it under better control now, although things are still in need
of some fine-tuning. Thanks for asking, though!
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 192 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:53 EST
To STEPHEN.KAHN,
I didn't say "we didn't do it and anyway you did it too". If you read my post
a little more carefully, you will see that what was said was that BOTH sides
committed crimes. That is a somewhat different position to take than the
reigning political dogma that dictates: "the Nazis were horrible beasts
responsible for everything and who committed all the mean and nasty things
while WE [i.e. the Allies] were perfect in every way."
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 193 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:00 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Your quote from Bradley Smith is found from the first page of his "CONFESSIONS
OF A HOLOCAUST REVISIONIST, PART I" preface, which tells me that you have
probably read it. Which is good, for that shows me that at least you are
willing to see the so-called "revisionist" side to things, and accounts for
your somewhat more controlled and erudite approach in stark contrast to some
of the others found here...
What Brad was trying to say was that he is an ordinary guy with NO particular
qualifications that has gotten into the holocaust thing because he found some
of the more outrageous assertions about it a little too hard to swallow. BTW,
his "CONFESSIONS" is apparently going to be re-released in an updated and
expanded edition.
Concerning Fred Leuchter, the fact that he's been THE leading consultant to
America's prison system on the design, manufacture and operation of "execution
hardware systems" including "gas chambers" makes him a good or excellent
candidate for examining the sites at the Auschwitz camp complexes. The truth
is, if he was NOT such an expert/consultant, his credibility would be under
attack for NOT being so, isn't that so? The object seems to be do attack the
man in any way possible because he has violated certain taboos.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 194 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:04 EST
To POOH.BAH and P.NANSON,
To answer your question as to whether or not I think the Nazis had a
deliberate policy of extermination designed to destroy various peoples,
especially Jews - to be honest, I would have to say "I don't know, but I don't
think so." Which is why I am interested in this discussion and why I want to
hear and read both sides of this issue.
The two people that seem to be representing the two sides fairly competently
are "The Raven" and "The Pooh Bear" - don't get me wrong, I am NOT insulting
either one of you, but a little humor is not out of place now and then. Both
of you have, for the most part, kept most of the emotion and personal attacks
out of it, very unlike most everybody else.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 195 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:15 EST
To G.RAVEN,
I understand that not a single autopsied body has ever been found in or near
ANY of the concentration camps and shown to have been "gassed". I also
understand that not a single "gas chamber" has yet been unearthed, nor a
single plan, blueprint, or official report on one, not even official financial
records showing an allocation for one. Just the many "survivor's" tales
which, as you quite rightly pointed out, the Yad Vashem authorities themselves
mostly reject and regard as unreliable.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 196 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:21 EST
To POOH.BAH,
This is two-part. Firstly, thanks much for the info on Raul Hilberg's 3-
volume "DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS" and the statistics therefrom. The
problem is that I can't find this book and would like to add it to my library
as being one of the books representing the holocaust position. If you know
where I can purchase the 3-volume set, please e-mail me an address.
A book called "THE DISSOLUTION OF EASTERN EUROPEAN JEWRY" by Dr. Walter
Sanning has been published that is a study of the demographic statistical data
on Europe's (and also the world's too for that matter) Jews in relation to the
holocaust, and the figures he produces are quite different from the ones you
quoted from Hilberg. I have no doubt that Sanning would reject Hilberg as
"unreliable" and vice versa, which tells me that there is indeed two sides to
this or perhaps that somebody is lying.
The second part of my reply concerns, again, your question about the
"extermination" policy. If you mean "elimination" rather than
"extermination", then the answer would be YES. I.e. the deliberate intention
to remove the Jews of Europe FROM Europe to someplace else (Palestine?
Madagascar? or wherever). I think THIS has been fairly well documented, but
is often confused for an "extermination" program.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 197 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 03:48 EST
Raven: Thank you for responding to my question and refraining from getting
sidetracked by other messages here. Even though there are a number of things
mentioned by both you and Rungu, I will "play by the same rules" so to speak.
You do not believe that there was an extermination program and I know that
there was one. Therefore, for you to attempt to disprove the gas chambers is
futile because if you WERE able to do so, that would NOT disprove the
extermination program. However, if you are able to disprove the extermination
program, then the gas chambers are moot.
With this in mind, then, let's research the extermination program from the
primary documents (i.e. the Nazis own record) and see what we find. Because it
is easier to discuss this with the appropriate excerpts from the documents, I
will u/l the excerpts that I will use here in this TOPic. However, it is also
important to be able to put that excerpt into context so I will u/l a larger
text into the PF*NPC RT library. Could you do the same with any documents to
which you wish to refer? I will be glad to give you instruction (if you need
them) on the use of the library here.
Also, it should be noted that the content of the document is important but it
is more important how the document fits into the CONTEXT of the rest of the
documents. Therefore, I might be posting several short multiple messages (the
way you do) to expose the entire picture.
It would be great since you started this TOPic if you and I could agree (with
the approval of the other users) to make this a one-on-one proposition which
would help with the organization of the discussion. You and I could agree to
limiting ourselves to responding only to each other and then Rungu could ask
questions of either of us, discuss with other users in the TOPic or just help
you out behind the scenes if you wish.
Does this sound like a fair format to you? In anticipation of your agreement,
I will prepare my first set of documents in proof that there was indeed an
extermination program.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 198 Mon Mar 16, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 04:27 EST
M.Rungu: Apparently, a bachelor's degree in history qualifies Fred Leuchter as
a "professional historian." I have a friend who took pre-med in college but
couldn't get into medical school. Can I call him a doctor now?
I've had considerable dealings with Greg Raven on Santa Monica's municipally-
operated BBS. I'd like to congratulate Pooh-Bah for his/her calm but
relentless dismantling of Greg's thesis on this board. In coming months,
Greg's shaky hold on the facts will be increasingly exposed (for example, he
once stated that Jews and Arabs coexisted "peacefully" before 1948). His
refusal to pay attention to deficiencies in the Leuchter Report caused me to
throw up my hands and I have since ceased debating him. I would encourage
participants who oppose the Raven&Rungu attack on the verity of the Holocaust
to let Pooh-Bah carrying on his/her excellent work. Please don't distract from
her points and questions by introducing emotional outbursts and meta-
discussions.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 199 Mon Mar 16, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 04:34 EST
I support Pooh-Bah's proposal. Let Raven and Pooh-Bah slug it out!
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 200 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 04:42 EST
Never Forget Never Again
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
A Moment of Silence in Memory of Those who died in the Holocaust
And those who died to stop it, as well as those who fight against it's
Soliders today.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Amoment as well to contemplate the shame of the apopogists, and followers
of Gebbel's Big Lie technique, who would try and deny it ever happened.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Never Forget Never Again
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 201 Mon Mar 16, 1992
E.BROWN42 at 05:13 EST
I second that motion, and I suspect that I know "the bear of much brains" true
identity.
Scaramouche :->
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 202 Mon Mar 16, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 05:22 EST
Hm. so Leuchter's professional qualifications derive from a BA in
history. Well, *I* have an MA in history. I therefore am a far more
skilled historian than he, by academic definition. I declare Leuchter's
findings preposterous, biased, incomplete, inconclusive, and invalid,
and await Mr. Raven's withdrawal from the argument, since he should
listen to my superior professional qualifications.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 203 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:31 EST
First, I will supply a group of excerpts from various documents to trace the
extermination program. Then I will write a message, if necessary, with any
explanations that are necessary. In many cases, the documents can stand
alone. I will use this same format for all my part of the discussion. The
designation at the bottom is an indication where the document can be located.
1.Sept.1939
Rischsleiter Bouhler and Dr. Brandt are commissioned under responsibility to
expand the authority particularly of designated doctors so that they can
euthanize after they become aware of people who are seized by incurable
sickness as determined by critical review of the state of their illness.
Adolph Hitler
630-PS
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 204 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:31 EST
From the instruction sheet for the questionnaire for the euthanasia program:
All patients are to be reported who
1. suffer from the diseases enumerated below and who within the institution
can be occupied not at all or only at the most mechanical work (picking,
etc.)
Schizophrenia,
Epilepsy (indicate if exogenous, war-related or other causes)
Senile disorders,
Therapy-resistant paralysis and other Lues [syphilitic] diseases,
Retardation from whatever cause,
Encephalitis,
Huntington's chorea and other terminal neurological conditions;
OR
2. have been continuously in institutions for at least 5 years;
OR
3. are in custody as criminally insane;
OR
4. do not possess German citizenship or are not of German or related blood
(footnoted)
Accompanying footnote: Jew, Jewish Mischling [half-breed] 1st and 2nd class,
Negro, Negro Mischling, Gypsy, gypsy Mischling.
4 KLS 7/47
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 205 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:32 EST
The proceeding two documents tell us that Adolph Hitler personally ordered
the euthanasia program and one of the qualifying "illnesses" was not of
German or related blood with Jew, Negro and Gypsy being the targets of that
designation.
The euthanasia program order is dated 1.Sept.1939 so it is important to note
that the Nuremberg Laws of 1935 removed German citizenship from the German
Jews which, therefore, gave them a double qualifying "illness" under number
4 above.
Although this is not the sole proof of the extermination program, it does
wipe out the claim that there is no order for the extermination of Jews since
being Jewish is a qualifying "illness" and Hitler did sign the order to
euthanize such people who are "incurably ill." Therefore, no further order
had to be issued to exterminate the Jews or Gypsies.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 206 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:33 EST
The following several messages are from the Einsatzgruppen Reports. The number
of the report and the date will be noted with each excerpt. The Einsatzgruppen
reported on their activities to their respective headquarters which sent the
information to Berlin. There the RSHA compiled concise reports in the name of
the Chief of Sipo and the SD. Copies were distributed to high- ranking army,
police and SS officers, diplomats, members of the foreign office an even to
industrialists as they related to economic factors in the Soviet territories.
The Einsatzgruppen Reports were discovered by the U.S.Army in Gestapo
headquarters in Berlin after the war. They were initially impounded by a
research analyst attached to the Berlin branch of the Office of the Chief of
Council for War Crimes. They were sealed and transported in the custody of the
US Army to Nuremberg. During the first days of the Einsatzgruppen Trial, the
authenticity of the reports was established beyond doubt and none of the
German defendants challenged their validity.
After the trial, the original reports were sent to the National Archives in
Washington, DC. In 1960 they were given to the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz.
Photocopies of all the reports remain in the National Archives and at Yad
Vashem in Jerusalem.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 207 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:34 EST
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 17
7.July.1941
According to instructions by RSHA, liquidations of government and party
officials, in all named cities of Byelorussia, were carried out. Concerning
the Jews, according to orders, the same policy was adopted. The exact number
of the liquidated has not as yet been established.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 208 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:35 EST
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 19
11.July.1941
In Kaunas, up to now a total of 7,800 Jews have been liquidated, partly
through pogroms and partly through shooting by Lithuanian Kommandos. All of
the corpses have been removed. Further mass shootings are no longer possible.
Therefore, I summoned a Jewish committee and explained that up to now we had
no reason to interfere with the internal arrangements between the Lithuanians
and the Jews.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 209 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:35 EST
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 106
7.October.1941
In agreement with the city military command, all the Jews of Kiev were ordered
to appear at a certain place on Monday, 29 September, by 6 o'clock. This order
was publicized by posters all over the town by members of the newly organized
Ukrainian militia. At the same time, oral information was passed that all the
Jews of Kiev would be moved to another place. In cooperations with the HQ of
EGC and two Kommandos of the police regiment South, Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews on September 29 and 30.
[NOTE: This took place in the ravine of Babi Yar outside of Kiev.]
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 210 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:36 EST
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 111
12.October.1941
These were the reasons for the executions carried out by the Kommandos:
political officials; plundereres and saboteurs; active Communists and
political representatives; Jews who gained their release from prison camps by
false statements; agents and informers of the NKVD; persons who by false
depositions and witness influencing were instrumental in the deportation of
ethnic Germans; Jewish sadism and revenge; undesirable elements; partisans;
politruks; danger of plague and epidemics; members of Russian bands; armed
insurgents; supplying Russian bands; rebels and agitators; drifting
juveniles; JEWS IN GENERAL. [emphasis mine]
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 211 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:37 EST
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 117
18.October.1941
The districts occupied by the Kommandos were cleansed of Jews. 4,091 Jews and
46 Communists were executed during the time span covered by the report,
bringing the total to 40,699 [for the period of 1-15 October 1941 by
Einsatzgruppen D].
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 212 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:38 EST
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 126
27.October.1941
The difficulties in carrying out such a large action - first of all with
respect to sowing disunity - were overcome in Kiev by a call via posters to
the Jewish population that they were to move.
Although at the start, one could count on the participation of about 5,000-
6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews turned up who, due to extraordinarily
skillful organization, believed in the transfer right up to the moment of
their execution.
Thus, even if about 75,000 Jews had been liquidated so far, it has already
become clear that a solution of the Jewish question will not be possible in
this way. True, we have succeeded in bringing about a total solution to the
Jewish problem, particularly in smaller towns and also in the villages.
However, in bigger towns it was observed that all the Jews have disappeared
after such an execution.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 213 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:39 EST
And, just in case you believe that any of the above was done for security
reasons and had nothing to do with the individuals being Jewish:
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 173
25.February.1941
In the course of a routine Security Police screening of an additional part of
the civilian population around Leningrad, 140 more people had to be shot. The
reasons for this were as follows:
a) Active participation in the Communist Party before the arrival of the
German troops;
b) Seditious and provocative activity since the arrival of the German Army;
c) Partisan activity;
d) Espionage;
e) Belonging to the Jewish race.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 214 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:39 EST
So, from the Einsatzgruppen Reports we learn that Jews were being executed for
no reason other than being Jewish, that these reports were being transmitted
to Berlin and that these executions continued. From this we can conclude that
Berlin did indeed order these executions. After all, Report 17 states that the
executions were ordered and, if this was false, it is reasonable to expect
that that misconception would be corrected quickly. However, almost 8 months
later executions are still taking place because individuals belong to the
"Jewish race."
In Report 126 we learn that these executions are considered part of the Final
Solution. This not only supports the conclusion that the Einsatzgruppen were
performing these executions based upon orders but also that this was just a
part of a bigger program to solve the "Jewish question."
From this, even though a small fraction of the evidence has been presented, to
conclude anything other than the fact that there was an extermination program
against the Jews would defy Occam's Razor.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 215 Mon Mar 16, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:48 EST
All of the typos in the above document excerpts are mine.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 216 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.FEINS at 07:30 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 217 Mon Mar 16, 1992
S.JACQUES at 10:30 EST
I havn't read any of the posts in this topic yet, but I will. I was
surprised to see this brought up again--the idea that this was a hoax
reveals a lot about anyone who hold this view in the face of overwhelmig
eyewitness testimony. Just where did the Jewish population of Europe,
e.g., towns in Poland--as in interviews of the approx. 6 hr film on
the Holocaust that was on PBS--anyone know what film I am refering to?
Anyway, where did the Jewish population of Europe go, if they were
not murdered?
One point I want to make, is that people often forget that the first to
go were Hitler's political enemies-the Communists. (Of course there was some
overlap).
I don't know if people in the US feel they should thank Hitler
for exterminating all the communists or what. Personally, I don't think
being a communist justifies extermination, any more than being a Jew.
However the extermination of the Jews was particularly horrible,
because it was based on racism and lies. I don't think that exterminating
your political rivals is justifiable, but at least one can see the reasoning,
which is not true with the extermination of the Jews.
Van
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 219 Mon Mar 16, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric] at 19:11 EST
[Once again, please direct commentary on the appropriateness of this topic to
topic 7 in this Category, and leave this topic for discussion of the Holocaust
itself. Thanks. -Ric/PF*NPC]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 220 Mon Mar 16, 1992
P.BOBBITT at 19:30 EST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TO: Carl >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think your views are admirable, but somewhat naive. You say you don't like
ANY infringement on anyone's freedoms. What you should consider is the fact
that there WILL be infringements, regardless of whether or not they are
intentional.
I propose this to you: Whose rights are being most infringed upon when a
government elects to silence a hate monger spreading literature that
encourages the destruction of a race?
I should think that the right to exist comes before the right of freedom of
speech. In this case, the government SHOULD step in to protect the more
important right, that of the right to live. Hate mongers directly threaten
this right and they should be silenced.
You will also not that I have at no point requested that this topic be closed
down. I think Raven has a right to express his opinions. He does not have the
right to threaten the safety of others with them. Since he has not done this,
he should be permitted to continue speaking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TO: M.RUNGU >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No one said this discussion had to centre around logic. Feelings are what
people like Mr. Raven play on. When you get my opinions on an issue, you get
both my thoughts and feelings. And the feelings Raven stirs up in me are very
real. If the expression, rather then the repression, of these feelings earns
me an "F", well I can deal with that. My point is, how do you like the points
I'm making?
>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 221 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.FEINS at 19:37 EST
-=-=-=- To: RTRAYNOR [Bevan]
> Constant repetition of that 'blessed memory' message is
> getting a touch trite. Can you at least vary the words some?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sorry, as long as this topic is alive these messages will be repeated
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 222 Mon Mar 16, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 19:47 EST
>>Am I to assume that a science teacher is supposd to be an exalted
>>authority on the holocaust? [sic]
No. Nor did I ask you to, M.RUNGU. I have some knowledge, but I'm hardly
an expert - Dr. Pooh is the expert.
>>There is a difference between disapproving of the policies of
>>the state of Israel and being anti-Semitic (or, as you probably
>>mean, anti-Jewish).
Granted. I don't approve of all of Israel's policies myself. On the other
hand, I don't simply classify it as "corrupt" and write it off - as you do.
By the way, "anti-Semitic" DOES mean anti-Jewish.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 223 Mon Mar 16, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 19:49 EST
Take it to TOP 7, Paul.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 224 Mon Mar 16, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 20:39 EST
Sigh. Why do I get the impression that several people are fighting
like the dickens to prove themselves more knee-jerk than Raven? The
performing bear acts threaten to obscure Pooh-Bah's masterful job.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 226 Mon Mar 16, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 22:13 EST
217 S.Jacques:
The movie to which you refer, I believe is Shoah. If so, it was about 8
hours, if memory serves (unless PBS hacked it some).
M.RUNGU:
How interesting that Zionist organizations and the ADL are "anti-Gentile."
Does pro-Jewish have to mean anti-Gentile? If so, I think you've exposed your
true colors loud and clear.
D.FRIEDMAN14
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 227 Mon Mar 16, 1992
M.FEINS at 22:47 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 228 Tue Mar 17, 1992
AH.STEIN at 00:09 EST
I left town for a few days, and came back to find over two hundred messages
here that would have me rolling on the floor from its absurdity were it not
for the horror of the Holocaust. The attempts at deception by the
so-called Holocaust Revisionists, who are actually disciples of the Nazi
Big Lie technique (repeat an obvious lie often enough and people start
believing it) are almost as laughable as the early inanities of their role
model, Adolph Hitler.
An example of the humor of some of these Revisionists. (I skipped most of
the messages, but the first one that I saw this morning was number 183,
from one M.Rungu. In it he says "Am I to assume that a science teacher is
supposed to be an exalted authority on the holocaust? How so? Leuchter is
a professional historian and THOSE credentials have already been "rejected"
by those who don't like his findings."
Isn't Leuchter the fraud who was parading around as an engineer, claiming
to be an expert on gas chambers, but turned out to be unlicensed? Is he
also now parading around as an historian, or is this just a figment of Mr.
Rangu's apparently very vivid imagination?
"The qualifications of the many professional historians of the Institute
for Historical Review and it's Board of Advisers are similarly rejected
and/or ignored.
I should hope so, at least if they're as professional as the admitted fraud
Leuchter! Or Mr. Rangu!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 229 Tue Mar 17, 1992
AH.STEIN at 00:10 EST
M.Rungu: I note that in message 194 you say "I don't know, but I don't
think so," but claim to have an open mind and wish to hear about both sides
of the issue.
If you really mean that, I have a suggestion.
Rather than simply reading, and arguing, about the Holocaust, I suggest
that you speak with some of the survivors. One can argue back and forth
about books and articles, but after speaking in person with a Jew who
suffered in the concentration camps and miraculously survived, nobody could
possibly take the Revisionists seriously.
I can't start going into minute details the way some other people do, and I
don't want to get into the Revisionists' trap of referring to someplace as
an extermination camp and having them come back and say such-and-such was
not an extermination camp, it was simply a concentration camp, and use that
to try to convince the naive that the Holocaust never happened. But I can
tell you, unequivacably, having spoken to a number of survivors who I have
known personally, including one woman who told of seeing the earth over the
mass graves at Babi Yar heave for days (or was it weeks?) after the mass
executions there, that anyone trying to convince you or anyone else that
the Holocaust never occurred is either totally misinformed or a bald-faced
liar.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 230 Tue Mar 17, 1992
C.MAIER [Claire] at 00:32 EST
Poohbah, you have repeatedly mentioned two types of historians with different
views (one starts with an I and one with an F, I think, but I can't remember
what the words are). Could you explain in detail what each of these types
mean, and how the distinction is important to this discussion of the history
of the Holocaust?
BTW, in case anyone cares, there is a difference between Pooh Bear and Pooh
Bah. Pooh Bear, or Winnie-the-Pooh, is a teddy bear who is a main character
in the children's books by A.A. Milne. Pooh Bah is a character from Gilbert
and Sullivan's Mikado, where Poohbah signifies an important official.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 231 Tue Mar 17, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 00:57 EST
Claire:
Most of us, I think, are aware of that. The only people using them
interchangeably aren't even enlightened enough to know there was a Holocaust,
let alone be conversant with G & S's wonderful operetti.
Dave
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 232 Tue Mar 17, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 01:30 EST
----->G. Raven (your post#184):
.
Thank you for your comments on my post (uptopic)...I will attempt to
address these comments:
.
>To John Stengel --- Your posting may be alright for an opening
argument,
>but as proof it has a LONG way to go. MOTIVE Hitler didn't like the way
>Jews acted, and wrote about that in Mein Kampf. Henry Ford didn't like
>the way Jews acted, and wrote about it. So did many other people. Big
>deal. What you need is something official, like a signed order, for
>proof.
.
Henry Ford was a minor league anti-semite, so I wont even adress that
point. Lets move right up to the major league. I admit that Hitler in *Mein
Kampf* does not come right out and say "If I come to power I'll set up death
camps and execute every Jew I can get my hands on." *Mein Kampf* does
continue to be the best source as to Hitler's general attitude towards Jews.
To illustrate Hitlers many anti-semetic comments, I present only a few. In
the second chapter, *Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna*, Hitler gives an
account of his "conversion" to anti-semitism. He gives a vivid blow by blow
description of this "conversion";
.
"For the Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion,
and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I maintained my rejection of
religious attacks in this case as in others"
.
Later in the chapter:
.
"If you cut even cautiously into such and abscess, you found, like a
maggot in a rotting body, often dazzled by the sudden light--a kike!"
.
Most revealing, Hitler closes the chapter thus:
.
"Hence today I believe I am acting in accordance with the will of the
Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the
work of the Lord"
.
Well, from my viewpoint, anyone who claims to be doing the work of the
Almighty is capable of anything. Hitler goes on throughout the book to
accuse the Jews of every vice, corruption, and crime known to mankind. He
makes it quite clear that he sees the Jews as number one enemy of his "Pure
Aryan Ideal". Hitler never needed to issue a "signed order", his lieutenants
knew exactly where he stood on the "Jewish question". Did Ronald Reagan have
to issue a "written order" to Ollie North to get the Iran arms deal moving?
Did the Ayatollah issue a written order to kill Salmon Rushdie? Did Jim
Jones issue a written order to his followers to drink Kool Aid? "Motivated"
followers don't need "orders", they anticipate what the boss wants. Written
orders are a civilized nicety which, contrary to legends of Teutonic
thoroughness, in Nazi Germany were at best used to ofuscate actions rather
than legitimize them.
.
Your request for a "written order" is more a request for the "smoking gun"
than it is a dispute with my citaiton of *Mein Kampf* as a basis of "motive"
for the holocaust. The "smoking gun" in this case is the smoking crematorium;
not a (probably) non-existing written order by Hitler to commence a mass
killing program. I stand on my point that *Mein Kampf*, authored by the
absolute dictator of Nazi Germany during the times in question, stands as
sufficient evidence to establish "motive"for the crime. (i.e."The Almighty
told me to do it")
.
Next point:
.
>OPPORTUNITY Of the Jews known to be in Europe in 1939, roughly 80
percent
>of them were never "molested" by the Nazis, and roughly 87 percent of
>them survived the war (whether through luck, emigration, etc.). This
>leaves roughly 13 percent who are dead (of all causes) or missing (of
>all causes). This represents a tremendous reduction in the ability of
>the Nazis to murder 6 million Jews, as they NEVER had their hands on
that
>many of them (the total dead or missing appear to be about 500,000)
.
Raven, are you arguing that the Holocaust never happened or that the
numbers are wrong? As for "opportunity", you do agree that most of the Jews
of Europe came under Nazi occupation at some point in the war? Would you not
also agree that as a result of German Army conquests, the Nazis had the
"opportunity" to deal with the "Jewish question" in any way they chose? As to
the numbers of people on which they exercised their "opportunity"; should
500,000 dead rather than 6,000,000 make us reduce our feelings of horror to
one twelveth? Incidently, the opening of massive formerly secret Soviet
archives should begin to clarify these numbers in the coming years. My hunch
is that the toll is closer to the 6,000,000 than the 500,000 figure. I
submit that your comments do not refute my "opportunity" argument; again I
stand on my original point.
.
The Weapon point:
.
>WEAPON To say that the Nazi state was a weapon is some major-league
>"wriggling," as you call it. In an American court of law, you have to
>produce the weapon, show that it was capable of committing the alleged
>act, and that it can be tested to show that it did in fact commit the
>act. This you cannot do.
.
Off the top of my head, I would define "weapon" as "instrument of
destruction or of killing". In my opinion, Nazism was a realization of 19th
century European Nihilism. While the philosophical origins of Nazism is
another topic in itself, suffice it to say that "Nihilism" can be summed up
very simply: "a philosophy of destruction". Hitler built his State with
nihilism at the foundation. Nazi Germany is remembered for what it was
"against" rather what it was "for". The Nazi rampage across Europe was an
orgy of nihilistic destruction, pure and simple. Like the Pied Piper, Hitler
led millions of Germans to their deaths with his "lebensraum" tune. In their
death dance, the German people took 42 million of their fellow Europeans
with them. I think my metaphor of the Nazi state as a weapon is appropriate.
Was the Nazi state "capable of committing the alleged act"? I submit that it
was not only capable, it was designed and built for just such acts. It was
philosohically committed to such acts.
.
Final Point:
.
>CORPUS DELECTI Yes, and what about the corpses. If the Nazis buried
their
>dead, let's find the graves and count the bodies. If they burned their
>victims, let's count the number of crematoria, find out how many total
>hours they could have been at work, and then divide that number first
by
>two and then by three (the number of hours it takes a modern crematoria
>to complete the first stage of the cremation process), to determine a
>ballpark figure for the maximum possible number of corpses that could
>have been cremated. Then, of course, we must subtract death from
>natural causes, death by disease, death by legal execution,
>etc., to arrive at a rough estimate of the number of possible victims.
>Have fun. One hint: you won't get anywhere near 6 million Jewish
victims,
>and adding 5 million non-Jewish victims makes your task yet more
>impossible.
.
Well, my sense of life urges me toward more wholesome ways to "have fun"
(than counting corpses), but I guess we'll have to examine this point if we're
interested in pinning down the number of victims. As to the numbers of proven
crematoria, I plead ignorance. I leave it to you Raven, and others on the
topic to enlighten me. As a "gut hunch", I would speculate that it is not an
insurmountable technical problem for a modern industrial nation to dispose of
11,000,000 emaciated bodies over a 2 or 3 year period. After the fire bomb
raid on Dresden in 1945, survivors had to deal the corpses of over 200,000
men, woman and children. The survivors were left with a city infrastructure
utterly destroyed; yet they dealt with the grissly task through the simple
expedient of piling up the bodies and burning them. My guess is that a Nazi
destruction machine capable of laying devastation to vast physical areas of
Europe and Russia would not be stumped by the relatively simple task of
disposing of 11,000,000 corpses. While we're at it, what became of the
7,000,000 German military and civilian dead? How about the estimated 20-
50,000,000 Russians? Do we deny Stalin's starvation of 10,000,000 Ukrainians
because no one can produce a grissly stack of 10,000,000 skulls?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 233 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:15 EST
To POOH.BAH,
I've been looking over your statements and the documents you have proffered to
prove that an extermination program was intended, planned, ordered, and
carried out. But I would like to make a comment or two before Mr. Raven
responds.
Firstly, any discussion of an "extermination program" relating to the
holocaust has to have it's primary focus on the famous "gas chambers" since
the vast bulk of the 6,000,000 figure are said to have been gassed. Also, the
vast majority of the number said to have been gassed were said to have been
gassed at the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp complexes. This should,
therefore, be the primary area of interest, rather than document after
document concentrating on the Einsatzgruppen operations.
Secondly, the Einsatsgruppen operations in and of themselves have always been
suspicious. Orders may have been issued, but they were not always carried
out, in spite of the reports coming in from the actual units in the field
supposedly carrying out those orders. Often it was found that the planned
operations were impractical or even downright impossible, and even sometimes
FALSE reports were sent in with fabricated figures of fatalities amongst the
targets.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 234 Tue Mar 17, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:19 EST
To M.Rungu (regarding 196) --- There is one copy left of Hilberg's three-
volume edition of "Destruction," priced at $145, at Eric Kline Booksellers,
Santa Monica, (310) 395-4747. It is in good condition, and includes the box
and the errata sheet.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 235 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:20 EST
To D.BRIN1
I agree that the emotional outbursts and the introduction of meta-discussions
are quite superfluous. I also think that the continuous, unending screenfuls
of "remembrance" messages are serving no purpose other than to irritate people
into leaving this message area entirely or to drown out the interesting
discussion that is developing. I do wish the person would desist from
submitting them over and over again.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 236 Tue Mar 17, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:20 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 197) --- I do not mind discussing this topic primarily
with you, and as you seem to be the best versed person participating for the
exterminationist side, this seems somewhat natural. However, I do not want to
exclude anyone from the discussion, if they feel they have something
substantive to add. I wanted to start this topic to get people involved, and
I think it inappropriate to exclude participants based on a quasi-elitist
standard. It would be nice of those posting the emotional (and the
repetitious) messages would allow us to conduct our discussion, but I welcome
all others.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 237 Tue Mar 17, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:21 EST
To Daniel Brin (regarding 198) --- As I remember things, you were going to
bury me beneath a mountain of evidence. You were so incapable of producing
even a molehill that you quit posting messages without even saying goodbye,
leaving all the others (who were counting on you) in the lurch. For those
here on GEnie, you might be interested to learn that Mr. Brin's main
contention about the Leuchter Report was that a pharmacist by the name of
Pressac was much better qualified to speak of gas chambers than acknowledged
expert Fred Leuchter. However, I will leave off my further defense of Mr.
Leuchter until such time as the thread of the "main" discussion gets to that
point.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 238 Tue Mar 17, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:21 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 203, 204, and 205) --- The barrel must be almost empty
if you are forced to scrape around in the scraps of the Nazi euthanasia
program. What you forgot to mention is that this program was quickly halted
because of adverse popular opinion. You have also blurred the line between
the one-at-a-time process of euthanasia (which we here in the U.S. are just
now starting to consider ... those Nazis were quite advanced) and mass
exterminations, as if mastering the former automatically makes you master of
the latter. Nothing could be farther from the truth, of course.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 239 Tue Mar 17, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:22 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, and 214) ---
You obviously have a lot of information already in your computer, ready to
upload. You should write a book. I don't, so I probably will not need to take
advantage of your offered instructions on transferring files to the library
section. Thanks anyway. --- You have left out of your postings many germaine
points. First, it should be mentioned that the Einsatzgruppen never numbered
more than about 3,000 people, and some of this complement was in the form of
administrators, secretaries (including women), teletype and radio operators,
truck drivers, and interpreters. Hardly the make-up of a purpose-built
killing squad. Furthermore, you neglected to mention that the Einsatzgruppen
were only in existence for a relatively short time, and had other chores to
which they had to attend.
However, you mention reports. Let's talk about some of the reports you have
omitted reproducing. How about no. 127, from 31.Oct..1941, which states:
"In this area the Security Police has come up against two major groups of
adversaries. They are: 1) the Jews, 2) those once active in the former Soviet
regime ... In this regard it should be pointed out that in the Ukraine, those
who sympathized with the Soviets were prodominantly Jews ... It can now be
stated without reservation that the Jews were, without exception, supporters
of Bolshevism.
"Over and over again, particularly in the cities, the Jews are cited as the
real Soviet rulers who exploited the people with indescribable brutality and
delivered them to their deaths at the hands of the NKVD. The (German Security
Police) units have carried out approximately 10,000 interrogations during the
past four months. Again and again, the Jews were cited as having worked
actively for the Soviets, if not in responsible positions then at least as
agents, collaborators or informers. Not a single Jewsh corpse had been found
in any of the numerous mass graves. In any case, it is evident that the Jews
share the greatest guilt with others for the slaughter of the Ukrainian
people and the ethnic Germans.
"For this reason, special measures against the Jews are considered
necessary by the Security Police." --- You might have mentioned the reports of
24.July.1941 and 5.Aug.1941, which refer to the establishment of Jewish
health centers in the newly-created Jewish ghettos to prevent the outbreak of
diseases. --- You might have mentioned the report of 12.Sept.1941 (no. 81),
which shows how relieved the Einsatzgruppen was to find large numbers of
Jews gone upon entering areas previously under Soviet control.
"During the first weeks considerable numbers of Jews fell under our
control, whereas in the central and eastern Ukrainian districts it has been
observed that in many cases 70 to 90 percent, and sometimes 100 percent, of
the Jewish population has fled. This can be seen as an indirect result of the
work of the Einsatzgruppen, since the removal at no cost of hundreds of
thousands of Jews --- most of them reportedly to beyond the Urals ---
represents a considerable contribution to the solution of the Jewish question
in Europe." --- When you made reference to the "Final Solution," you might
have reminded everyone that this did not mean extermination. This was
pointed up in report 63, 25.Aug.1941:
"Slowly but surely, one of the most important problems, the SOLUTION OF THE
JEWISH QUESTION, is being tackled. In Kishiven, there were approximately 60-
80 thousand Jews before the war. Most of them were deported with the
withdrawal of the Russians. When the city was captured, there were only about
4,000 Jews present, but that number has since increased. Upon the initiative
of the Einsatzkomando the Rumanian city commander established a Jewish ghetto
in the old city which currently contains about 9,000 Jews. The Jews are being
organized into work groups and assigned to various German and Rumanian units
for clean-up work and other kinds of labor." --- On the topic of the casualty
figures, you forgot to mention that historians Reitlinger, Hilberg, Shirer,
Paget, Maser, Bauer, Cargas, Krausnick, and Wilhelm acknowledge that these
figures bear little resemblance to reality. For that matter, the testimony of
Einsatzgruppen defendants Blobel and Nosske bear this out. Even Ohlendorf,
who squealed like a stuck pig about high casualties in an effort to get
himself off, changed his tune when he saw he was not immune from prosecution.
--- As to your opinion that Hitler must have had some hand in this, even
Hilberg no longer believes that. To quote Mayer:
"Apparently, neither Heybrich, Hitler, nor Himmler ever issued a written
command to liquidate these noncombatants." --- Finally, to your statement that
none of the Einsatzgruppen defendants challenged the authenticity of the
documents, I can only say that all the war crimes trials were kangaroo
courts, and they must have adopted the position they thought best at the
time. However, Mayer has recently interpreted and then eliminated one by one
all of the documents or arguments which up until now have been used to make
people believe that the Germans practiced a policy of exterminating the Jews
(the Goering-to Heydrich letter of 31.July.1941, the Wannsee Conference
transcript, the conduct of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia, Himmler's speeches
at Posen in October, 1943, etc.). And if that is not enough, Hilberg
acknowledges that the Einsatzgrupen did not kill Jews without a security
reason (1985 edition). --- Perhaps most importantly, however, you neglected to
mention that the Germans were fighting a guerrilla war in that area, which
was started by Stalin's order of 3.July.1941. Under the circumstances, the
Germans performed admirably.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 240 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:24 EST
To S.JACQUES,
Yes, Hitler did take measures against the Communists of Germany. His policy
before he acceded to power in the democratic elections of 1933 was to fight
them tooth and nail everywhere they could be found. His policy after he
became Chancellor was to basically leave them alone IF they accepted the new
government and did not go underground or engage in revolution.
The general policy of the KPD (Germany's communist party) was to go
"underground", and thus, true to his word, the new government hit them very
hard indeed. An excellent book on the subject from a personal standpoint is
"OUT OF THE NIGHT" by Jan Valtin.
Of interest here is an "overlap" problem, for a great many of the communist
leaders and communist functionaries were in fact Jewish. The measures taken
against them could, therefore, be considered a verifiable aspect of the
holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 241 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:26 EST
To P.BOBBITT,
I think everybody has their own thoughts and feelings aroused in a discussion
of this nature, but the problem lies in the fact that certain individuals give
in to temptation and express those feelings and thoughts in an unacceptable
manner that is offensive to EVERYBODY. Those that do so, in my grade book, get
an "F".
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 242 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:29 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14,
It is fact that many of the "pro-Jewish" organizations in existence today
practice what we might call "Semitism". That term could be defined as the
ideology of Jewish supremacy and anti-Gentile hatred and it's outward
expression. It is precisely the behaviour we see in men organizations like
the Jewish Defense League and which we saw in men like Rabbi Meir Kahane
(whose views were unpalatable to even the leaders of Israel).
The practice of "Semitism" in it's most rabid forms have led to the outbreaks
of "anti-Semitism" here and there. It's an interesting aside to the overall
holocaust discussion...
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 243 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:32 EST
To J.STENGEL,
The quotes from "Mein Kampf" are interesting but prove absolutely nothing
whatsoever. Hitler himself violated many of the principles found in his book,
in later years, and frequently expressed himself in contradiction to passages
therein. He also often expressed regret at having written the book at all.
Pointing to the anti-Jewish references found in Mein Kampf do NOT prove intent
to create or carry out an "extermination program", mcuh much less (typo on
line above, sorry!) prove that such a program was carried out.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 246 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:53 EST
230 Claire:
> Poohbah, you have repeatedly mentioned two types of historians with
> different views (one starts with an I and one with an F, I think, but I
> can't remember what the words are). Could you explain in detail what each
> of these types mean. . .
The two general schools in Holocaust history are the Intentionalists and the
Functionalists. The difference in the two groups is evident in their
interpretations of the advent and implementation of Nazi policies toward the
Jews.
For the Intentionalists, there is a straight line from Hitler's anti-Semitic
ideology of the 20's to the policies of the Nazis and the Final Solution.
The Functionalists, OTOH, believe in whole or in part that: (1) the Nazi
system was chaotic and major decisions were often the result of the most
diverse pressures, and, (2) the Final Solution was without any imperative
central planning, forecasting or clear orders from the top.
I could elaborate further but this gives you a basic idea.
> . . . and how the distinction is important to this discussion of the
> history of the Holocaust?
To understand the importance to this discussion of these two schools, you need
to know a little about what the Holocaust Deniers say about Holocaust history.
From one of their ads that they run on college campuses we find:
> We debate every other great historical issue as a matter of course, but
> influential pressure groups with private agendas have made the Holocaust
> story an exception.
Obviously, considering that the two Holocaust history schools of thought are
so different from each other, the above quote from the ad, like the rest of
the text, is false. I can also tell you that the debate between the two
schools is very heated at times. For instance, in the "Yad Vashem Studies XIX,
1988" (an annual publication of the recent scholarly investigations into the
Holocaust), there is a heated debate in the first article that continues for
50 pages between an Intentionalist and a Functionalist.
Hope this helps to answer your questions. Feel free to ask more.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 247 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:54 EST
233 Rungu:
> Firstly, any discussion of an "extermination program" relating to the
> holocaust [sic] has to have it's primary focus on the famous "gas
> chambers" since the vast bulk of the 6,000,000 figure are said to have
> been gassed.
This is one of the reasons that it is good to get your information from
historical sources instead of just from the mass media and IHR. You had
previously asked me to post some figures (which I did from Hilberg) and then
you commented on that message but apparently ignored its content.
There were 2.7 million who perished at the extermination camps and, as I noted
in my earlier message, not all of these were the result of gassing. Some died
of disease, medical experiments, cold, hunger, forced labor or were executed
by other methods such as shooting and hanging.
Therefore, the vast majority of the 5.1 million that Hilberg cites were killed
through methods other than gas.
> Secondly, the Einsatsgruppen operations in and of themselves have always
> been suspicious. Orders may have been issued, but they were not always
> carried out, in spite of the reports coming in from the actual units in
> the field supposedly carrying out those orders. Often it was found that
> the planned operations were impractical or even downright impossible, and
> even sometimes FALSE reports were sent in with fabricated figures of
> fatalities amongst the targets.
Excuse me, do you know this from personal experience or could you cite some
sources for these strange claims?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 248 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:55 EST
235 Rungu:
> I also think that the continuous, unending screenfuls of "remembrance"
> messages are serving no purpose other than to irritate people into leaving
> this message area entirely or to drown out the interesting discussion that
> is developing. I do wish the person would desist from submitting them
> over and over again.
Excuse me but weren't you the one who was championing free speech a short
while ago?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 249 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:55 EST
236 Raven:
> I do not mind discussing this topic primarily with you, and as you seem
> to be the best versed person participating for the exterminationist side,
> this seems somewhat natural. However, I do not want to exclude anyone
> from the discussion, if they feel they have something substantive to add.
I just don't want either you or I to get distracted by side issues that might
be proposed by others. I have nothing against either you or I responding to
those side issues as long as it doesn't interfere with the discussion between
you and I. Agreed?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 250 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:56 EST
238 Raven:
> What you forgot to mention is that this program was quickly halted
> because of adverse popular opinion. You have also blurred the line
> between the one-at-a-time process of euthanasia (which we here in the
> U.S. are just now starting to consider ... those Nazis were quite
> advanced) and mass exterminations, as if mastering the former
> automatically makes you master of the latter. Nothing could be farther
> from the truth, of course.
Your point would make sense except for one slight flaw. The Nazis did not do a
"one-at-a-time" euthanasia program. They "euthanized" 70,000 Germans in the
"short while" the program was in effect.
However, even discounting that flaw in your position, your message fails in
that it missed the point of the purpose of my u/l'ing of the documents
regarding the euthanasia program. The point was that being Jewish was
considered an "incurable illness" according the euthanasia program.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 251 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:57 EST
239 Raven:
> You obviously have a lot of information already in your computer, ready
> to upload.
Not at all. Everything that I u/l'ed in those comments was newly typed. I'm
now working on typing the full documents to u/l into the library. I just
happen to know the history of the Holocaust fairly well, have excellent
resources handy and don't mind letting my fingers do the walking.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 252 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:57 EST
239 Raven:
> First, it should be mentioned that the Einsatzgruppen never numbered
> more than about 3,000 people, and some of this complement was in the form
> of administrators, secretaries (including women), teletype and radio
> operators, truck drivers, and interpreters. Hardly the make-up of a
> purpose-built killing squad.
Are you forgetting or are you not aware of the auxillary groups that were
composed of local populations and the pogroms that were incited. I would like
to refer you to Reports 8, 14, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26, 38, 40, 43, 48, etc.
I assume from you lengthy quote of 127 that you have the Report available to
you. However, since many reading this probably don't, let me give them an
example to what I am referring. From Report 40, 8/3/41:
"It was very easy to convince the Lithuanian circles of the need for self-
purging actions to achieve a complete elimination of the Jews...Spontaneous
pogroms occurred in all the towns...Self-cleansing operations are very late in
starting in Latvia. Although Jews are completely eliminated from public life,
they can still be seen in the streets of Latvia's towns. The impertinence of
the Jews has contributed towards increased self-cleansing activityes. Thus in
all Latvian towns pogroms, destructions of synagogues, and liquidations of
Jews and Communists occurred....Self-cleaning activities in Latvia still
continue at this time....In the self-cleansing actions in Lithuania, Latvia
and Estonia over 20,000 Communists and Jews were liquidated by the self-
defense organizations."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 253 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:58 EST
239 Raven:
> As to your opinion that Hitler must have had some hand in this, even
> Hilberg no longer believes that. To quote Mayer: "Apparently, neither
> Heybrich, Hitler, nor Himmler ever issued a written command to liquidate
> these noncombatants."
Wow! I love your logic! You state that Hilberg (an Intentionalist) doesn't
believe that Hitler had "some hand in" the Einsatzgruppen and, as proof, you
quote Mayer (a Functionalist).
Did you mean that or did you get a little sloppy or were you merely testing
me?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 254 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:59 EST
239 Raven:
> Hilberg acknowledges that the Einsatzgrupen did not kill Jews without a
> security reason (1985 edition)
Do you have a page number for that? Here is what I find in Hilberg:
"According to Ohlendorf, the commanders of the Eisatzgruppen were briefed by
Himmler personally. They were informed that an important part of their task
was the elimination of Jews - women, men and children - and of Communist
functionaries. Standartenfuehrer Jaeger of Einsatzkommando 3 recalls a meeting
of about fifty SS leaders in Berlin, where Heydrich declared that in the event
of war with Russia the Jews in the east would have to be shot. One of the
Gestapo men asked: 'We should shoot the Jews?' Heydrich then answered: 'Of
course.'"
No where in there (or in the text proceeding or following this passage) do I
find any indication that Hilberg "acknowledges that the Einsatgruppen did not
kill Jews without a security reason."
This position would fly in the face of Report 173 which I quoted before that
stated that a reason for execution was "belonging to the Jewish race." To
respond to this report by saying that Hilberg disagrees is employing the
logical fallacy of an "appeal to authority."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 255 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:59 EST
239 Raven:
All in all this message is spoken like a true believer in Mark Weber. Here I
quote from a number of Reports which indicate that Jews were being killed for
being Jews and you produce a single report that says Jews were Communists and,
therefore, a security risk.
Let's look at this more carefully. Report 127 (your quote) was written on
October 31, 1941. In it, it states: "It can be stated positively today that
the Jews without exception served Soviet Bolshevism."
That sure leaves me wondering about Report 111 (October 12, 1941 - over 2
weeks BEFORE it could be stated "positively" ) where one of the reasons was
"Jews in general".
Oh, now I get it. I needed to read further in Report 127 to see the Nazi
logic. "Not a single Jewsh corpse had been found in any of the numerous mass
graves [from the Soviets]." Hmmm....I wonder how the Nazis were able to
determine that. Check for circumcision? Do you have any clue?
This clearly demonstrates that justification, rationalization and propaganda
are not tied to reason, logic or reality.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 256 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 07:00 EST
239 Raven:
> Mayer has recently interpreted and then eliminated one by one all of the
> documents or arguments which up until now have been used to make people
> believe that the Germans practiced a policy of exterminating the Jews
> (the Goering-to Heydrich letter of 31.July.1941, the Wannsee Conference
> transcript, the conduct of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia, Himmler's
speeches
> at Posen in October, 1943, etc.).
Talk about spin doctors! Mayer is a Functionalist - not a Holocaust Denier. He
has NOT "eliminated one by one all the document or arguments which....have
been used to...believe that the Germans PRACTICED A POLICY OF EXTERMINATION."
He fully acknowledges the extermination but believes that it was a FUNCTION of
other events.
Once again, though, you err by an "appeal to authority." You need to cite
documents, your interpretation and, if desired, it is permissible to state
authorities who agree with your interpretation. That is scholarship. However
to simply state that "X says Y therefore it is true" is faulty logic and
definitely NOT reserach or scholarship.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 257 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 07:01 EST
240 Rungu:
> His policy after he became Chancellor was to basically leave them alone IF
> they accepted the new government and did not go underground or engage in
> revolution.
Do you still believe in the Nazi propaganda that the Communists started the
Reichstag fire?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 258 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 07:01 EST
Now, Raven has posted an Einsatzgruppen Report (127) which claims that the
Jews were a security risk. That report was dated October 31, 1941. In a direct
response to that Report, I said that it was a utilization of "justification,
rationalization and propaganda." This might sound like I was speaking from
ideology and not primary sources (which I have committed myself to using to
base all my statements.)
Here is the primary source upon which I based those comments. This comes from
a Wehrmacht report on the extermination of the Jews in the Ukraine. It is
dated 2.December.1941 and was sent from the Inspector, Armament in the Ukraine
to Berlin. It is document: PS-3257.
"From the outset the attitude of the Jewish population was anxious-willing.
They tried to avoid anything that might displease the German Administration.
That they hated the German Administration and the Army in their hearts is
obvious and not surprising. However, there is no evidence that the Jews,
either as a body, or even in any considerable numbers, have taken part in
sabotage, etc. Without doubt there have been some terrorists or saboteurs
among them, just as there have been among the Ukrainians. But it cannot be
claimed that the Jews as such present any kind of danger for the German
Wehrmacht."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 259 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 07:02 EST
And, what about the mention in Raven's Einsatzgruppen Report 127 that the Jews
had brutalized the local population under the Soviets? Is this true?
Let's take a look at a report from SS Sturmbannfuehrer Magill of the 2nd SS-
Cavalry Regiment dated 12.August.1941.
"It was also conspicuous that in general the population was on good terms with
the Jewish sector of the population. Nevertheless they helped energetically in
rounding up the Jews. The locally recruited guards, who consisted in part of
Polish police and former Polish soldiers, made a good impression."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 260 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 07:03 EST
Raven also made the claim that the "Final Solution" meant the removal of Jews
via emigration, etc. and not extermination. I wish that were true. However, to
make such a claim required ignoring certain documents and the correlation
between those documents. His claim is based upon Einsatzgruppen Report 63
dated 25.August.1941.
From TR-3/1209 (Yad Vashem) we have an order signed by Mueller on
23.October.1941.
"The Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police has decreed that the
emigration of Jews is to be prevented, taking effect immediately."
So, if the Final Solution on 25.August.1941 was the emigration of Jews, had it
been completed by 23.October.1941? No, that can't be it. After all, that would
mean that there weren't any more Jews to emigrate so there would be no need
for the above order. Hmmm....I guess the only logical conclusion could be that
the Final Solution was not about emigration!
In fact, from a Foreign Ministry Circular dated 25.January.1939 we find
regarding the German Jews who were emigrating from Germany (please keep in
mind that the war had not even started yet):
"The poorer the Jewish immigrant [from Germany to other countries] is and the
greater the burden he constitutes for the country into which he has
immigrated, the stronger the reaction will be in the host country, and the
more desirable the effect in support of German propaganda. The aim of this
German policy is a future international solution of the Jewish question,
dictated not by false pity for a 'Jewish religious minority that has been
driven out' but by the mature realization by all nations of the nature of the
danger that Jewry spells for the national character of the nations."
That sure doesn't sound as though the Nazis would have been satisfied with
having no Jews on their soil. It seems that their outlook was much broader and
a simple emigration program would never have been considered a Final Solution.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 261 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 07:10 EST
The above messages clearly demonstrate why there is a right method and a wrong
method to working with primary sources.
The right method demands that we look not only at the content of a particular
document but that we must also put that document into the CONTEXT of the
{rest{ of the documentation.
To base a theory or opinion upon one or a few documents while ignoring the
rest is similar to the paradimgm of the six blind menKo "viewing" an elephant.
The blind man who felt a leg of the elephant believed the elephant to be
similar to a tree. The ;3blind man who felt an ear believed the elephant to be
similar to a leaf. The blind man who felt the trunk believed the elephant to
be similar to a snake, etc.
The fact is that all the blind men were incorrect.{ t({History is a jigsaw
picture puzzle and the primary{ documents are the pieces. If we leave out one
single p{iece, the picture is incomplete.{xD Therefore, some of the documents
that I u/l might not seem {to have anything to do with the particular issue
being discussed. However, even those documents are essential to bringing the
full picture into focus.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 262 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.FEINS at 07:41 EST
We Remember
1,500,000 small Jewish Children
of
Blessed Memory
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
WE SHALL NEVER FORGET
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 264 Tue Mar 17, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric] at 18:05 EST
[1 messages have been deleted. Please limit repetitious 'remembrance'
messages, or at least vary the wording. Please do NOT post a 90 line article
with the same line repeated over an over again -- that is not appropriate
here. Thank you. -Ric/PF*NPC]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 265 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:07 EST
Raven maintains that the Final Solution meant the physical removal of Jews
from Germany (verses their physical destruction). I have already responded
with a few documents to refute this but, because it is such a crucial point,
I think that I should give a more complete response.
I imagine that most people here have heard of the Madagascar Plan....the plan
to ship the European Jews to a special reservation on the island of
Madagascar. With such a plan, is it possible that Raven is correct? The
simple answer to that question is: No.
There were TWO Madagascar Plans. One was formulated by the RSHA and the other
by the SS. Neither plan was finalized nor accepted by the Nazi hierarchy as
THE Madagascar Plan so that raises a question as to how serious that plan was
in the scheme of the Final Solution.
What follows, though, is something better than any claims that I or any
authority could make. I will u/l a series of excerpted documents dated from
21.September.1939 - 16.December.1941. As soon as I have the time, I will type
up the full documents and u/l them to the library here. I'm sure that I can
count on the sysops to expedite their access once I u/l them.
I caution you that you might find some of these documents very disturbing. To
give you an idea, I was going to include more excerpts but lost the stomach
for it after the last 4 I typed.
Other than one note after the first document, I have made no commentary. They
are presented so that you may draw your own conclusions.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 266 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:07 EST
21.September.1939
Berlin
To Chiefs of all Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police Subject: Jewish
Question in Occupied Territory
I refer to the conference held in Berlin today, and again point out that the
planned total measures (i.e., the final aim) are to be kept strictly secret.
Distinction must be made between:
1. the final aim (which will require extended periods of time)
and
2. the stages leading to the fulfillment of this final aim (which will be
carried out in short periods).
It is obvious that the tasks ahead cannot be laid down from here in full
detail. The instructions and directives below must serve also for the purpose
of urging chiefs of the Einsatzgruppen to give practical consideration to [the
problems involved.]
For the time being, the first prerequisite for the final aim is the
concentration of the Jews from the countryside into the larger cities.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 267 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:08 EST
From the above document, we discover that there are to be intermediate steps
and then, the "final aim" (Endziel). Before the "final aim" can be executed,
the Jews need to be concentrated into the cities. This would indicate that
the ghettos and _concentration_ camps are part of the intermediate step.
All of that everyone can clearly see. There is one part that might miss
someone's notice but it is important. That is: the date. On September 21,
1939, the Blitzkrieg had been successful....but the Nazis were still bound by
the anti-aggression pact that had been signed by Hitler and Stalin. Also, the
Nazis had yet to conquer France and Madagascar was a French possession.
So, to claim that the "final aim" spoken of in this document meant to move
the Jews further East OR to set up a reservation on Madagascar for them means
that one claiming that would have to acknowledge that Hitler and the Nazis
were either planning the invasion of the Soviet Union OR the invasion of
France. Since this is possible, more documentation needs to be reviewed.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 268 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:09 EST
13.August.1941
The Reichskommissar for Ostland
IIa 4
Secret!
Provisional Directives for the treatment of Jews in the area of the
Reichskommissariat Ostland.
The final solution of the Jewish question in the area of the
Reichskommissariat Ostland will be in accordance with the instructions in my
address of 27.July.1941 in Kovno.
Insofar as further measures are taken, particularly by the Security Police,
to carry out my verbal instructions, they will not be affected by the
following _provisional directives._ It is merely the purpose of these
provisional directives to assure that where, and as long as, further measures
for the final solution are not possible, minimum measures will be taken by
the Generalkommissare or Gebietskommissare. . . .
. . .As far as possible the Jews are to be concentrated in cities or in
sections of large cities, where the population is already predominately
Jewish. There, ghettos are to be established, and the Jews are to be
prohibited from leaving these ghettos.
In the ghettos the Jews are to receive only as much food as the rest of the
population can spare, but not more than is required for their bare
subsistence. The same applies to the allocation of other essential goods.
Lohse
Reichskommisar
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 269 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:10 EST
24.September.1941
. . . Individual actions by members of the Wehrmacht or participation by
members of the Wehrmacht in excesses by the Ukrainian population against the
Jews is forbidden; they are also forbidden to watch or take photographs of
measure taken by the Sonderkommando [of the Einsatzgruppen]. . . .
von Rundstedt
High Command
Army Group South
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 270 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:10 EST
15.November.1941
Reichskommissar for Ostland
IIa 4
Secret
To: Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories
RE: Execution of Jews
. . .Will you please inform me whether your inquiry of 31.October should be
interpreted as a directive to liquidate all the Jews in Ostland? Is this to
be done regardless of age, sex, and economic requirements (for instance, the
Wehrmacht's demand for skilled workers in the armament industry)? Of course
the cleansing of Ostland of Jews is a most important task; its solution,
however, must be in accord with the requirements of war production. . .
Loshe
Reichskommissar for Ostland
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 271 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:11 EST
18.December.1941
Berlin
Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories
To: Reichskommissar for Ostland
RE: Jewish question
The Jewish question has presumably been clarified meanwhile by means of
verbal discussion. In principle, economic considerations are not to be taken
into account in the settlement of the problem. It is further requested that
any questions that arise be settled directly with the Higher SS and Police
Leader.
Braeutigam
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 272 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:12 EST
December.1941
Reichskommissar for Ostland
To: Higher SS and Police Leader
. . . I request most emphatically that the liquidation of Jews employed as
skilled workers in armament plants and repair workshops of the Wehrmacht who
cannot be replaced at present by local personnel be prevented. . .
. . . Provision is to be made as quickly as possible for the training of
suitable local personnel as skilled workers. . .
Loshe
Reichskommissar for Ostland
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 273 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:13 EST
16.December.1941
Minsk
Generalkommissar for Byelorussia
To: Reichskommissar for Ostland
I wish to ask you personally for an official directive for the conduct of the
civilian administration towards the Jews deported from Germany to
Byelorussia. Among these Jews are men who fought at the Front and have the
Iron Cross, First and Second Class, war invalids, half-Aryans, even three-
quarter Aryans. . .
. . .These Jews will probably freeze or starve to death in the coming weeks.
. . On my own responsibility I will not give the SD any instructions with
regard to the treatment of these people. . .
I am certainly a hard [man] and willing to help solve the Jewish question,
but people who come from our own cultural sphere just are not the same as the
brutish hordes in this place. Is the slaughter to be carried out by the
Lithuanians and Letts, who are themselves rejected by the population here? I
couldn't do it. I beg you to give clear directives [in this matter,] with due
consideration for the good name of our Reich and our Party, in order that the
necessary action can be taken in the most humane manner.
Heil Hitler!
Wilhelm Kube
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 274 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:13 EST
So, there are excerpts from 7 documents. One I included only to indicate how
closely the secret of what was being done was guarded. However, throughout
there is a tone of secrecy and instructions or clarifications given verbally
instead of in writing.
D. Jean Antoine Llorente, formerly Secretary of the Inquisition wrote:
"Secrecy, the foe of truth and justice, was the soul of the tribunal of the
Inquisition; it gave to it new life and vigour, sustained and strengthened
its arbitrary power, and so emboldened it, that it had the hardihood to
arrest the highest and noblest in the land, and enabled it to deceive, by
concealing facts, popes, kings, viceroys, and all invested with authority by
their sovereign."
In this regard, was the Holocaust much different? It is amazing and we should
be grateful for the quantity that the Nazis DID put into writing. Some have
said that this is a contradiction which cannot be resolved (i.e. the
extermination program was a secret but they put so much of it in writing).
However, all of the Nazi ideology was composed of unresolved paradoxes. For
instance, the Jews were "sub-human" far inferior to the "master race." Yet,
according to the Nazis, it was this sub-human element that had somehow
outwitted the Master Race and dominated the world.
I believe Paul Valery had a prophetic vision of the Holocaust Deniers when he
wrote in 1895: "The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor
for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and
oneself for an oracle, is inborn in" them.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 275 Tue Mar 17, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:47 EST
Marty, as long as Raven and his motley crew keep repeating their very
creative rewriting of history, it's appropriate that you bring us back to
reality with a moment of silence.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 276 Tue Mar 17, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:47 EST
238 G.Raven:
>Nothing could be farther from the truth, of course.
I just couldn't keep myself from pointing out that you are an expert in
this area, i.e. straying far from the truth.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 277 Tue Mar 17, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:48 EST
242 M.Rungu:
>It is fact that many of the "pro-Jewish" organizations in existence today
practice what we might call "Semitism". That term could be defined as the
ideology of Jewish supremacy and anti-Gentile hatred and it's outward
expression.
In a like manner, with at least as much accuracy, truth could be defined as
deception.
>The practice of "Semitism" in it's most rabid forms have led to the
outbreaks of "anti-Semitism" here and there.
Racists have often tried to blame their victims for their plight.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 278 Tue Mar 17, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.] at 18:56 EST
It's interesting to note that M.Rungu has dropped the claim, made in message
#3, that it "doesn't know much about the topic." I was inclined at first to
accept this at face value, but M.Rungu's subsequent disingenous use of "my
understanding is that...," "I have heard that...," etc., prior to each
regurgitation of various fundamental claims of the Deniers makes it apparent
that it "knows" a good deal about Holocaust Revisionism. M.Rungu is acting
the part of the shill.
Further, while I am perfectly content to allow Pooh.Bah to dig into the
details of the Final Solution, I do not think it serves any useful purpose for
everyone to forfeit expressing their opinion of Holocaust Revisionism, and
especially to offer their opinions as to what motivates the Deniers.
In my opinion, for example, the purpose of the Deniers is to legitimize
Hitlerism in particular, and fascism in general, by denying their antihuman
essence - with the goal of installing fascism here. They *like* German-style
fascism. They think it's good for you. Unfortunately, it's a difficult sell
when everyone knows that among its results was the mass murder and attempted
extermination of an entire people; thus the denial.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 279 Tue Mar 17, 1992
AH.STEIN at 19:44 EST
Pooh.Bah: You are truly an amazing person. Given all the documentation
you have given, nobody but a nincompoop or dyed-in-the-wool racist could
possibly give any credence to the creative rewriting of history by those
who would deny the existence of the Holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 280 Tue Mar 17, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 20:53 EST
>>Firstly, any discussion of an "extermination program" relating to
>>the holocaust has to have it's primary focus on the famous "gas
>>chambers" since the vast bulk of the 6,000,000 figure are said to
have been gassed.
By whom? I've heard "majority" but never "vast bulk".
>>Secondly, the Einsatsgruppen operations in and of themselves have
>>always been suspicious. Orders may have been issued, but they
>>were not always carried out, in spite of the reports coming in
>>from the actual units in the field supposedly carrying out those
>>orders.
M.RUNGU, why do you plead ignorance on certain matters, (like when the facts
are against your position) but then make very authoritative statements,
implying that you are very knowledgeable, when you think the "facts" support
you?
Could you give a source for this belief that Einsatzgruppen reports were
often falsified? In any case, though, assume that none of the atrocities Pooh
has mentioned really happened (as I don't): if the German High Command had NOT
had a policy of extermination, these reports would have led to the removal and
court-martial of the officers in question.
>>Yes, Hitler did take measures against the Communists of Germany.
>>His policy before he acceded to power in the democratic elections
>>of 1933 was to fight them tooth and nail everywhere they could be
>>found.
You're slipping, M.RUNGU. These two sentences are clearly sympathetic to
Hitler - only a Nazi or Nazi-wannabe could call the elections of '33
"democratic". Hitler "acceded to power" by arranging for gangs of bullies to
intimidate voters, winning a strong minority position, and using his position
as Chancellor to supress the legislature and opposition.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 281 Tue Mar 17, 1992
POOH.BAH at 21:11 EST
> His [Hitler's] policy before he acceded to power in the democratic
> elections of 1933. . . .
Hitler was never elected Chancellor. He was appointed. Elections for members
of the Reichstag were held in July '32, Nov. '32 and March '33. Hitler was
appointed in January '33. The last election before his appointment, the Nazis
had actually LOST seats in the Reichstag.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 282 Tue Mar 17, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 21:28 EST
The title of this topic is an assault and offense to all victims of Nazism.
That GEnie has become the forum for the dissemination of neo- Nazi material is
tragic.
Now management considers remembrance messages an abuse. Tragic.
Public Forum NonProfit Conn. R
Category 15, Topic 5
Message 5 Tue Mar 17, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric] at 18:08 EST
Just a note... I deleted two 'remembrance' messages consisting of nothing more
than the same line repeated 90 some odd times. This is
considered an abuse of the forum. I really don't mind SHORT
remembrance notes if they are posted at reasonable intervals. I
do not consider three or more a day as reasonable, though.
Thanks. -Ric/PF*NPC
----------
S I X M I L L I O N REMEMBRANCES STILL WOULD NOT OUTWEIGH THE OFFENSE AND
THE AFFRONT TO ALL THE VICTIMS OF NAZI BARBARISM CAUSED BY THIS TOPIC.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 283 Tue Mar 17, 1992
P.PERCHANSKY [Marana_tha] at 21:37 EST
Hello G.RAVEN:
You are in my prayers.
--- Peter M. Perchansky
Psalms 18:31
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 284 Tue Mar 17, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric] at 22:31 EST
No, Dov, I consider two back-to-back 90+ line messages in which one sentence
is repeated over and over an abuse.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 285 Tue Mar 17, 1992
P.NANSON at 23:02 EST
Re: 278
Yes, Jon, M.RUNGU apparently knows quite a lot more about this revisionist
denial theory than it lets on.
I also noticed an interesting cronology which I will post to Topic 7 when it
is compiled.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 287 Tue Mar 17, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 23:13 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the 75,000 Mental Defective People
who because of something they could not comprehend
nor defend themselves against
were slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 288 Tue Mar 17, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 23:17 EST
M.RUNGU:
Are you really comparing Meir Kahane and the JDL to Abe Foxman and the ADL?
You can't possibly think JDL is mainstream "Semitism." If you do, you've got
loads to learn. Maybe you shouldn't post until you at least know some facts,
rather than "abusing this forum" (to paraphrase Ric) by firing off ill-
considered, shallowly-researched "facts" which have no roots in reality.
D.FRIEDMAN14
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 289 Tue Mar 17, 1992
ERIC-M at 23:24 EST
>>> POOH.BAH
RE: Intentionalists/Functionalists
So basically the Functionalists say that anything that happened isn't
Hitler's fault and, instead, the blame should be placed on somebody else?
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 290 Tue Mar 17, 1992
ERIC-M at 23:25 EST
Do the Holocast deniers also deny the medical experiments, especially the
infamous twin studies? How are these explained?
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 297 Wed Mar 18, 1992
P.NANSON at 00:59 EST
Re: Message 286
D.FRIEDMAN14;
>Hey, isn't it interesting how posts 233-239, from Raven and
>M.RUNGU are interspersed together and occur at exactly the same
>time (around 2:20 AM) ???
Yeah, isn't that interesting. I'm not the only one who noticed that.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 298 Wed Mar 18, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 01:22 EST
294 Dave
Obviously Dave, when looking for Raven's shills, do not be blind- sided. They
operate in many directions, waving many banners. A favorite tactic of the neo-
Nazis is to wave the Constitution, even in private arenas where there is no
government influence, to demand their 'right' to disseminate propoganda. After
listening to one guttersnipe rail against me and Paul Nanson, I suspect
someone is protesting too much. (: A shill is a shill is a shill.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 302 Wed Mar 18, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:29 EST
295 Claire:
> Poohbah, what about the photographs of the emaciated people in the
> concentration camps, and those of the emaciated corpses?
Thanks, Claire, for asking such a great question. This is one of the areas
that
the Holocaust Deniers can use to create doubts in the minds of those who
don't
understand what the photographs show and what they don't show. This has been
one
of their tactics....to take something that you (or someone else...nothing
personal here ) believe and prove that some of your beliefs are wrong.
Are there photographs? Yes. Are the photographs real? Yes. Have they been
analyze by professionals to prove they are real? Yes, through the National
Archives. (BTW, this was done AFTER some Deniers claimed they were faked.)
Having said all that, it is important to know what the photographs show. The
first misconception that a lot of people have is that the photos show bodies
which have been gassed. This is not true. The extermination camps with gas
chambers were all in Poland (eastern camps). The photographs we have were
taken
by the Allies in the west, most notably the US. The US did not liberate any
of
the extermination camps so we have no photographs of those camps.
I think you probably know this already based upon the rest of your message:
> Do the Holocaust deniers think a bunch of people starved themselves and
> posed for these things as part of a conspiracy?
Deniers are not a monolithic group any more than historians are. Some
Deniers,
when asked about the photos, just ask: "Who controls Hollywood?" Other
Deniers
have claimed that the photos are faked but the most informed Deniers claim
that
all the photographs show are people who have suffered from starvation and
disease (typhus) BECAUSE of the break-down in transportation, etc. in Germany
as the war was coming to a close (i.e. the deaths were a result of the
Allies,
the Nazis didn't do anything wrong).
This, then, shows the cleverness of Denial. They can prove that there was a
break-down in transportation, etc. and many to whom they are speaking cannot
prove that the starvation had gone on throughout the Nazi reign of terror
even
though they "know" that it did. Yet, we have documents like this excerpt that
I u/l'ed yesterday in this TOPic:
> In the ghettos the Jews are to receive only as much food as the rest of
the
> population can spare, but not more than is required for their bare
> subsistence. The same applies to the allocation of other essential goods.
Read it carefully. Only as much food as the rest of the population can spare.
Never more than is required for bare subsistence. This means that they could
receive LESS than is required for bare subsistence! I had this document handy
because I used it yesterday, however, there are other documents which address
the camps directly and even include how much food an inmate should receive.
By
nutritional analysis, it has been determined that the caloric intake of the
diet described in those documents is insufficient to sustain life.
Yes, there was a break-down in transportation, etc. at the end of the war.
No,
that did not CAUSE the starvation....it just helped to continue it.
> I'd also appreciate it if you would include short excerpts of the
documents
> you've uploaded to the library
Hopefully you've discovered that I have already. Otherwise, it leads me to
believe that the many messages I've posted here are either not being read or
being misinterpreted. Say it ain't so. :-)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 306 Wed Mar 18, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric] at 17:02 EST
[14 messages moved to topic 7]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 307 Wed Mar 18, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 18:06 EST
Mike, in addition to complaining about your 90 liners, he also said that more
than three memorials posted daily would not be reasonable. Six million
memorials would be reasonable.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 308 Wed Mar 18, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.] at 18:20 EST
G.Raven 239:
As Pooh.Bah has pointed out, Mayer is scarcely a revisionist. Indeed, he goes
so far in his book _Why Did The Heavens Not Darken?_ to coin a new term to
describe the "mass murder" (his term) of Jews by the Nazis: Judeocide.
M.Rungu 240:
How, then, do you explain the banning of the Communist Party's press, the
forbidding of Party public meetings, etc., all of which took place *after*
Hitler was appointed Chancellor and *before* the March, 1933 elections? How
do you account for Goering's directive of February 17? How do you account for
the arrest of approximately 10,000 Communists in the February 28 - March 3
period, i.e., before the "democratic" elections of 1933? How do you account
for the cancellation of those parliamentary mandates which were won by the KPD
in those elections? The virtual banning of the KPD on March 6 - the day after
those elections?
And, of course, one must ask what you mean in your statement that a "great
many" of the KPD's leaders and functionaries were Jewish? What is a "great
many?" 10%? 20%? 50%? Source? Do you subscribe to Hitler's thesis of the
identity of Judaism and Bolshevism?
M.Rungu 242:
The Jews are responsible for antisemitism? And why is antisemitism in
quotation marks? Do you believe there is no such thing as antisemitism?
Eric 289:
No, the Functionalists do not argue that "the blame should be placed on
someone else." As Pooh.Bah has noted, the Functionalists argue, with varying
emphases, that the Nazi extermination of Jews did not proceed from a fixed and
unvarying plan concocted before the fact, but from, essentially, a set of
improvised "solutions" to perceived problems. Mayer, in particular, also
argues that the Final Solution cannot be understood without a recognition of
the interplay between Nazi antisemitism and anti-Bolshevism.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 309 Wed Mar 18, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:22 EST
I was talking (land line) to a friend of mine from GEnie today. He told me
that after reading comments in this TOPic that he felt as though he had led a
very sheltered life and wanted to know more about the Holocaust Deniers, their
organizations, etc.
It occurred to me that there might be others here who would be interested in
that information, too. So, I'll breifly review what I know about Holocaust
Denial.
Currently, a man by the name of Bradley Smith is trying to place ads in campus
newspapers around the US. These ads deny the Holocaust.
Bradley Smith is 61 years old and, according to his book, for 35 years he has
been a writer, unsuccessfully. He gives his credentials as: "A high school
graduate, I have worked at many odd and boring job, travelled to exotic
places, seen many people killed and maimed and so on."
One has to wonder what "and so on" means in this context! He also states:
"I've never been interested in intellecutal work; it takes too long."
However, it is pages 98-99 which really boggle the mind:
"Two thousand years ago there were Jews who believed utterly that the son of
their G-d had been nailed to a pole and executed and that he rose from his
tomb to sail off the planet into the heavens. That tale was a runaway hit. Now
we have Jews everywhere committed to the proposition that _millions_ of them
were exterminated in itty-bitty gas chambers, were cremated, and rose up
toward the heavens in smoke. This one has all the signs of becoming a real
blockbuster, too. We Gentiles used to be made of sterner stuff. It took the
Jesus story more than three hundred years to be accepted as Truth by the
state. In our time the state bought the Holocaust story at the first
screening."
This should give you a fair idea of Mr. Smith and his views. His denial of the
Holocaust is based purely on taking a couple of literary expressions
literally.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 310 Wed Mar 18, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:37 EST
Bradley Smith places tries to place the college ads under the auspices of
CODOH (Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust).
CODOH was founded in 1987 and its directors are Bradley Smith and Mark Weber.
Mark Weber is a former member of William Pierce's neo-Nazi National Alliance
but is a relatively silent director. That leaves Bradley not only as the sole
active director but, also, the sole active MEMBER....CODOH is essentially a
committee of one!
But, this is just the beginning of the tangled web. CODOH is an extension of
the IHR Media Project which is directed by.......Bradley Smith! Sounds like a
little inbreeding to me.
The IHR Media Project is, of course, a section of the IHR (Institute of
Historical Review). Now the IHR has a lofty sounding name but is it a lofty
organization?
Well, they publish something called the Journal of Historical Review (JHR) and
it makes interesting reading to review their editorial assistants.
First, there is Mark Weber....the silent co-director of CODOH. But, this time
it goes beyond inbreeding. For instance, there is Wilhelm Staeglich who was a
judge in Germany and refers to the Holocaust as "Zionist atrocity propaganda"
(from a letter he wrote to the International Red Cross). There is Robert
Faurisson, a Frenchman, who has been relieved of his position as professor of
classical literature at Lyons 2. He has also been convicted of disseminating
materials to incite hate toward an identifiable ethnic group - Jews. There is
also Ditlieb Felderer who has also been convicted of racial harrassment in his
native Sweden. He is known as the source of mailings to Jewish leaders in
Europe. Within these mailings were locks of hair and pieces of fat and he
asked the recipients if they could identify the contents as belonging to
Hungarian Jews gassed at Auschwitz!
This, then, is a sampling of the intellectual and ethical editorial assistants
that produce the JHR. Please notice, among other things, its international
scope. IHR just happens to be the leading mover in Holocaust Denial in the
world....and it is located right here in the US (CA to be exact).
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 311 Wed Mar 18, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:54 EST
What about the IHR itself? Well, the IHR was founded in 1979 by Willis A.
Carto. Carto is also known as the founder of the Liberty Lobby (is treasurer
of it at present) and the Populist Party which ran David Duke for President in
1988.
Carto is an interesting character....and he's been kind enough to correspond
with all his views clearly exposed. The material I will quote is from his pen.
However, none of the views he expresses are original. After each of his
quotes, I'll post a similar quote from another source.
"The revolutionists have seen to it that only a few Americans are concerned
about the inevitable n*ggerfication of America" Carto
"...she [France] is making great progress in n*ggerfication...on European
soil....An immense self-contained area of settlement from the Rhine to the
Congo, filled with a lower race gradually produced from continuous
b*stardization." Adolph Hitler - MEIN KAMPF
"Yet White America, in her ignorance which is a planned result of the foul
Jewish conspiracy to mongrelize the white people of this once-proud nation,
knows nothing of this ready alternative [sending the blacks to Africa] to a
certain mongrelized fate." Carto
"It was and it is Jews who bring the Negroes into the Rhineland, always with
the same secret thought and clear aim of ruining the hated white race by the
necessarily resulting b*stardization" Hitler - MEIN KAMPF
"If Satan himself, with all the superhuman genius and diabolical ingenuity at
his command, had tried to create a permanent element of disintegration and
force for destruction of the nations, he could have done no better than to
invent the Jews." Carto
"Where Jews are concerned, I'm devoid of all sense of pity. They'll always be
the ferment that moves peoples one against the other. They sow discord
everywhere, as much between individuals as between peoples." Hitler
I guess, then, that it's true. There is nothing new under the sun. It is a
fifty year old refrain that the Holocaust Deniers sing only this time they use
the label "anti-Zionism" in place of "anti-Semitism" because the former is
acceptable by our society but the latter isn't. It used to be though....until
the Holocaust. So, maybe all the Deniers want to do is rehabilitate the label.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 312 Wed Mar 18, 1992
SPEAKER at 21:27 EST
I sift through the ashes and what do I find? The lives and dreams and hopes of
those who have died. The survivors have given voice to their strife - they've
borne witness to days of torturous life. Some of the perpetrators have told of
their crime - orders were followed without reason or rhyme. Yet, through it
all we have lost stories galore of those who perished in the madness of the
storm. Here, then, I step up to speak of lives so precious and deaths so
bleak. Listen if you dare to the tales I tell: I speak of what I know and that
I know well.
His name was Hanus Hachenburg born in Prague - Summer's child with a poet's
heart. Born July 12, 1929, his fate was sealed first on Sinai and then at
Munich. We chuckle ironically at "Peace in our time" but to Hanus, dear lad,
his laughter and childhood were cut short. He wants to be heard although his
story is long. Dear reader, bear with him, while he tells you about a 14 year
old life at Theresienstadt (Terezin).
------------------------------
Terezin
That bit of filth in dirty walls,
And all around barbed wire,
And 30,000 souls who sleep
Who once will wake
And once will see
Their own blood spilled.
I was once a little child,
Three short years ago.
That child who longed for other worlds.
But now I am no more a child
For I have learned to hate.
I am a grown-up person now,
I have known fear.
Bloody words and a dead day then,
That's something different than bogie men!
But anyway, I still believe I only sleep today,
That I'll wake up, a child again, and start to laugh
and play.
I'll go back to childhood sweet like a briar rose,
Like a bell which wakes us from a dream,
Like a mother with an ailing child
Loves him with aching woman's love.
How tragic, then, is youth which lives
With enemies, with gallows ropes,
How tragic, then, for children on your lap
To say: this for the good, that for the bad.
Somewhere, far away out there, childhood sweetly
sleeps,
Along that path among the trees,
There o'er that house
Which was once my pride and joy.
There my mother gave me birth into this world
So I could weep...
In the flame of candles by my bed, I sleep
And once perhaps I'll understand
That I was such a little thing,
As little as this song.
These 30,000 souls who sleep
Among the trees will wake,
Open an eye
And because they see
A lot
They'll fall asleep again...
-------------------------------
This, then, was Hanus' life as told in his own words. Poor Hanus never had a
chance to publish any of what he wrote. The train that came took him away to a
different country and camp. On December 18, 1943, the flames burned bright as
Auschwitz released his soul to sing with the angles.
Yis-gad-dal v'yis-kad-dash sh'meh rab-bo. . .
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 313 Wed Mar 18, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 21:50 EST
Thank you, Speaker.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 314 Wed Mar 18, 1992
G.RAVEN at 22:39 EST
To AH.STEIN (regarding 229) ----- So you know a woman who saw the "earth over
the mass graves at Babi Yar heave for days (or was it weeks?) after the mass
executions there"? Wow. Tell me, what special properties must these corpses
have had to cause this phenomenon? Does this property also account for the
tales of professional liars such as Elie Wiesel, who claims that the ground
spurted blood afterwards? Did the ground heave before or after the blood
spurted, or were the two unconnected? Surely, if you think about this for a
moment or two, you will see that you have swallowed whole a typical atrocity
stories (read: lie). It is vulgar lies such as these that defame the German
people, and serve as an insult to our intelligence.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 315 Wed Mar 18, 1992
G.RAVEN at 22:41 EST
To John Stengel (regarding 232) ----- Your statements that written orders were
somehow not needed in Nazi Germany is contrary to the fact that there are
mounds of documents from this period. In fact, the Germans seemed quite happy
to document everything.
---------- I am arguing that the Germans never had their hands on 6 million
Jews, based on the fact that only a small fraction of Jews in lands
controlled by the Germans were arrested or detained by the Germans. When you
look at the 500,000 figure of which I spoke, and then you look at the numbers
of deaths by natural causes in the Jewish community during the war years, you
see that they are almost identical. In other words, almost as many Jews NOT
in custody died of natural causes as Jews IN custody died ... supposedly due
to some sort of program of mass extermination. This means that those
efficient Germans, using all the technology they could muster, only managed
to MATCH the natural death rates in their extermination program. Items such
as this make me seriously doubt there could ever have been an extermination
program.
---------- You yourself state that calling the Nazi state a "weapon" is a
metaphor. Metaphors (even bad ones) rarely kill people, and certainly not en
masse. To put a finer point on it, let's say that your most bitter enemy was
killed with a shot from a Colt .45 auto pistol. You are found to have such a
pistol in your possession. The police would attempt to test-fire this gun to
see if the bullet in the victim came from your gun. If, however, they
discovered that the gun's firing pin was frozen with rust in its bore (for
example), and could not possibly have fired the fatal shot, this would be a
point in your favor. If the gun could fire (or be made to fire) the bullet
would then be examined to see if it matched the fatal bullet (ballistics
test). In terms of this discussion, in spite of the fact that we have been
presented with rooms that supposedly were used as gas chambers (the "gun"),
we can show that the rooms could not have functioned as gas chambers (the
"frozen firing pin"), AND that in fact they never were (the "ballistics
test"). You have no weapon. Stating that you do is somewhat like stating that
"society" causes black kids to rape grandmothers and rob liquor stores.
---------- To expand on my earlier point about the crematories, if each body
took only one hour to be completely reduced to ash (which is unreasonably
short), you would nee 11 million crematory hours to eliminate all the claimed
victims. Crematories can only run 12 hours out of 24, which means you need
roughly 916,000 crematory days. Because all this alleged killing took place
in roughly three years (let's say four), you have only 1461 calendar days
available. Dividing crematory days by calendar days, you find you need 626
crematories working at peak efficiency to do the job, which is ridiculous.
Unfortunately for the exterminationists, this is a best-case scenario. Note
also that this leaves unaddressed the question of gassing the victims first.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 316 Wed Mar 18, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:46 EST
Greg Raven:
> Tell me, what special properties must these corpses have had to cause
> this phenomenon?
Perhaps you should consult a physiology text. There are no special properties
that are necessary. It is called DECOMPOSITION. When a body begins to decay,
gasses are released. Since these particular corpses were shot and immediately
buried without the benefit of embalming, the gasses had no place to go.
Therefore, the ground DID heave (as it has always done with any mass graves of
similar fashion).
Now, do you really want to call Elie Wiesel a liar and claim that he said that
the ground spurted blood afterwards? Are you SURE you don't want to retrack
that statement before I expose what Elie Wiesel REALLY said? Are you SURE that
you want to lose your last vestiage of credibility?
BTW, why don't you also say "hi" to Brad for me....after all, that particular
phrase is the one he always uses....and we KNOW how highly he regards
intellectual work, don't we?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 317 Wed Mar 18, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:53 EST
Greg Raven: We realize that you are CLAIMING that the Germans never had their
hands on 6 million Jews. However, your claim does not agree with the facts.
According to the Nazis own documents, they had access to ELEVEN MILLION Jews.
Just because you CLAIM something, doesn't make it a fact.
Now, do you really want to discuss the crematoria? If so, please be prepared
to document all your facts and, please, no more logical fallacies thrown in
for good measure, okay?
According to the Nazis own documents....written during the time they were in
power....the crematoria at Auschwitz alone could handle 10,000 corpses in 24
hours.
When you document your facts, please document the differences between
cremating an embalmed corpse vs a non-embalmed corpse that has just died.
Next, please document how many victims were cremated in the crematoria as
opposed to other methods of disposal (i.e. open pit burning, mass graves,
etc.).
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 318 Wed Mar 18, 1992
R.ARBETMAN at 23:03 EST
The facts are that the Holocaust happened. Those who try to deny it
are merely trying to sanitize the Third Reich and make Naziism palatable
once again.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 319 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:02 EST
How sad....and how ungrateful some people are. Here Raven opens a TOPic, posts
messages inviting a discussion, even agrees to have said discussion with me,
makes me go to all the trouble of typing all those messages containing the
excerpts from Nazi documents....and then he doesn't even reply to them.
Hmmmm......
Since I posted them, he has logged on and had the time to respond to
Alan.....therein illustrating his wonderful lack of knowledge of decomposition
and anarobic bacteria.....but doesn't even say "hi" to me.
Oh well.....maybe his silence means that he agrees with me. Think it's too
much to hope for that he will turn in his red, white and black for the good
ole Stars and Stripes?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 320 Thu Mar 19, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 00:07 EST
Score: Lord High Everything: (I've lost count) Raven and His Magic Sidekick:
-(I've lost count)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 321 Thu Mar 19, 1992
R.ARBETMAN at 00:17 EST
319 POOH.BAH
I hear ya baby! I hear ya! :-)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 322 Thu Mar 19, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 01:08 EST
D.BERKOWITZ (298) - Aw. You do say the sweetest things. Someone
taught you rhetoric in rabbinical school, eh? Someone is indeed protesting
too much - you are quite right in that. Keep up the good work in showing
the readers how logical and reasoned your side can be.
POOH-BAH - darn. You beat me to the decomposition comment.
Perhaps one of the most major flaws in Raven's line of thought (given
the presumption that he is sincere in his beliefs) is that on just about
every facet of the subject, he approaches the matter from one of three
angles:
1) If an incident is reported, what ways are there to either explain
why it couldn't have really happened, or to discredit the witnesses?
2) If the first approach doesn't work, what persons can be brought
forward to make a contrary statement, no matter how solid their motives,
credentials, or access to the evidence?
3) If neither the first nor the second approaches work, ignore the
comment entirely and hope it goes away or no one mentions it.
I daresay much the same methodology was used to explain the flatness
of the earth, Ptolemaian planetary mechanics, the sun rotating around
the earth, and other such items of accepted wisdom.
Upon first hearing of the moving graves, my first impulse was "Nice
allegory." The second was to consider if it could be true. The obvious
answer was released methane and imperfectly tamped graves. Even in
modern-day landfills, where bulldozers meticuolously tamp and groom the
sites, there are still spontaneous "eruptions."
Blood flowing from the ground? Remember the area and the season - it
would be entirely likely for the ground to be frozen enough for blood
to have nowhere to go but to soak the surface.
It's a different approach. One that chooses to take given facts and
explain how they could have occured, instead of taking a favored pet
theory and working like the dickens to deny any contradictory fact.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan <* = =
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Message 323 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:23 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 246) ---
Okay, so we have two different groups lying to us about the Holohoax.
Hiding behind this artifice is akin to claiming that, because there
were two groups arguing about which way to position the deck chairs
after striking the iceberg, the Titanic did not sink. I submit that
when you have two supposedly learned people such as Raul Hilberg and
Arno Mayer espousing diametrically opposed views on this issue, as
you claim they do, there is a real problem with "scholars" cooking
the data in order to make it fit their preconceived notions. The very
fact that there is such a raging discussion over documents known to
both sides indicates that in all probability there is at least one
more side to this topic. I note also that you did not mention which
side you favor.
---
On a more personal note, one of the reasons I find Holocaust
revisionist so compelling is that there seems to be a great deal of
"revisionism" going on within the exterminationist camp. As you look
through the literature, you quickly find that no two survivors agree
with each other, and neither seem to agree with independently known
facts. Similarly, no two exterminationist historians seems to agree
on much, unless they are copying each other. For whatever it is
worth, the revisionists have a much more coherent approach to this
entire matter.
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Message 324 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:24 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 247) ---
Just because you quote Hilberg's numbers does not mean we all have to
adopt them as our own. You should have pointed out that until quite
recently, those presently in charge of the Auschwitz camp maintained
that 4 million people ... the majority of which were Jews ... were
murdered at Auschwitz. Now this number has been revised downward to
roughly one million. How does this happen? How come we still hear
about 6 million Jewish deaths? Whose math are we using, anyway?
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Message 325 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:25 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 249) ---
Agreed.
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Message 326 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:25 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 250) ---
Apparently, you are at odds with the Nazis when you claim that being
Jewish was an incurable disease. I could have sworn I read that Jews
who converted to Christianity were well treated by the Nazis (the
Roman Catholic Church flourished during Hitler's rule, for those who
do not know it).
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Message 327 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:26 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 252) ---
Yikes! So it wasn't Hitler, and it wasn't any of his general staff,
and it wasn't even the Einsatzgruppen (not really), but instead it
was the indigenous populations who murdered millions of Jews ...
according to a NAZI plan? This must have proved a BIG disappointment
to the Nazis, who were setting aside ghetto areas for the Jews,
setting up hospitals, etc. All that work for nothing.
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Message 328 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:27 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 253) ---
I apologize for not knowing the difference between Hilberg (the
Intentionalist) and Mayer (the Functionalist). I guess the logical
extension of your differentiation between these two is that because
they disagree on major points history, the Holocaust must have
occurred. No wonder the revisionists have attracted my attention.
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Message 329 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:27 EST
Bevan: Regarding the blood. Your idea isn't too bad other than the fact that
Babi Yar occurred in September (and the ground probably wasn't frozen) and
there are other factors to be considered....the main one being that Elie
Wiesel never said that blood spurted from the ground!
Yet, there are still other factors to be considered. The gas produced from
decomposition did "bubble" to the surface (and then the ground collapsed).
This whole process made the ground "mushy" and bodily fluids also were able to
escape to the surface.
If Raven chooses not to retrack his statement calling Elie Wiesel a
"professional liar" and Raven's ridiculous claim about Wiesel's statement, I
will be more than happy to post all the information (first, the proof that
Wiesel never stated that blood spurted from the ground and second, the reason
that SOMEONE did say such a thing). I just don't want to give Raven too many
clues before he decides whether he should or should retrack his statement. I
don't think that would be fair, do you? After all, research is a very
rewarding activity. :-)
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Message 330 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:27 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 254) ---
In the 1985 edition, I find Hilberg's statement in Chapter 4 (Mobile
Killing Operations), sub-section The First Sweep, sub-sub-section The
Killing Operations and Their Repercussions, in the paragraph
immediately after a list of German words translated to English. In my
copy, this is page 134, second paragraph up from the bottom. He says,
"Generally speaking, we find in th ereports one overall justification
for the killings: the Jewish danger."
---
If this is an appeal to authority, I apologize again. Please realize
that I speak no German, am not a historian, have more than a
fully-item job doing something completely unrelated to this topic,
and so must be satisfied with what I can pick up in my spare time. I
can't help it if there are exterminationist historians who disagree
with you. Perhaps you should correspond with them instead of taking
it out on me. If the so-called historians can't even get their
stories straight, then we do indeed need more discussion about this
thing called the Holocaust, the creation of this topic being one
small step in the right direction.
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Message 331 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:28 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 255) ---
As you must certainly know, when the Germans discovered evidence of
mass exterminations in their push Eastward, they invited outside
parties to come witness the investigations. This stands in stark
contrast to the Soviet method, which is to hide everything from
outside eyes and then issue a "report." You see, once you discard the
preconception that the Holocaust happened and accept the possibility
that the Nazis may not have been monsters, a lot of things start to
make sense.
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Message 332 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:28 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 256) ---
I realize that Mayer does not deny the Holocaust ... which is
precisely why he is of such great interest. Here is someone who
professes to believe in the Holocaust, yet feels compelled to
jettison much of the standard Holohoax thesis in order to save some
remnant of the Big Picture. And as before, I remind you that I am
neither a researcher nor a scholar. Therefore, it should be
relatively simple for someone as proficient as you to demolish my
position, yes?
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Message 333 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:29 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 258 and 259) ---
What you are saying basically is that the Einsatzgruppen reports YOU
quote can be used to prove a point, but the ones I quote are to be
dismissed. Of course, you have used that same argument when I quote
exterminationists who don't toe your line. You really must tell us
which historians are okay to quote, and whether you are an
Intentionalist or a Functionalist.
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Message 334 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:30 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 260, 261, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271,
272, 273) ---
Instead of merely typing these documents in, you should have read
them also. They say nothing about mass execution of Jews. You say the
fact that there were two Madagascar Plans proves the Nazis weren't
serious about finding a place to send the Jews? Are you serious? By
that logic, that means that Himmler's Europa Plan and all of
Eichmann's work in trying to find someplace to ship the Jews REALLY
shows the extent of the extermination process. Those tricky Nazis!
---
Along that same line, Nazis were so concerned about the wishes of the
Vichy government that they put off transporting Jews to Madagascar.
How vicious! How evil! How heartless! Oooh, those meanies!
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Message 335 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:30 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 274) ---
I don't want to get into a discussion of whether the Jews are
inferior or superior, or what the Nazis thought of them. However, I
will note that in economics, bad money ALWAYS pushes out good. In
other areas, the larger the crime organization the more they push
away the smaller criminals and the honest people. Therefore it is not
out of the question that something "inferior" could come to dominate
something "superior."
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Message 336 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:31 EST
To Carl Fink (regarding 280) ---
Are you saying that evidence of Nazis disciplining their own kind for
excessive behavior toward the Jews (and others) would be proof that
there was no policy of extermination?
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Message 337 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:32 EST
To Eric-M (regarding 290) ---
It is not my position to "deny" all excesses on the part of the Third
Reich, and I would imagine that the professional revisionists feel
the same. However, if there were some excesses in medical experiments
(to take your example), these are bad enough without adding 11
million fictitious victims of a far-fetched plan of extermination.
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Message 338 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:32 EST
To Paul Nanson (regarding 297) ---
Here we are discussing one of the hottest topics around and all you
notice is that two people posted messages at the same time?
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Message 339 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:33 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 302) ---
>The photographs we have were taken by the Allies in the west,
>most notably the US. The US did not liberate any of the
>extermination camps so we have no photographs of those camps.
In other words, we know that the camps liberated by the Allies were
not extermination camps. This leaves the camps liberated by the
Communists. Which means that most of the evidence (including the bulk
of that at the Nuremberg trials, etc.) must have come from behind the
Iron Curtain. So what you are saying, in essense, is that the Allies
were wrong when they said there were extermination camps in Germany
(and executed Germans for the crime), but that the Communists are
correct. You will excuse me, I hope, if I demur at accepting ANYTHING
the Communists say about anything.
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Message 340 Thu Mar 19, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:34 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 309, 310, 311) ---
If you strive for accuracy, you will point out to your eager fans
that your characterizations of Bradley Smith, Mark Weber, the IHR,
and others is hardly unbiased (or correct). Should anyone wish to
contact any of the people or institutions maligned by Pooh.bah,
contact me through E-mail and I will give you address (I am assuming
that it would be improper to post addresses here in the public area).
And Pooh.bah, you continued sleights against the above-named, Fred
Leuchter, and others, is unwarranted and out of place ... if you
truly have the proof you claim to have. It should not matter if
Hitler himself was on the staff of the IHR ... if you cannot make
your case without resorting to personal defamation, perhaps you
should reexamine your position.
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Message 341 Thu Mar 19, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 02:10 EST
338 Greg Raven: "To Paul Nanson...
Here we are discussing one of the hottest topics around and all you notice is
that two people posted messages at the same time?"
Commentary:
a.) This isn't a discussion: rather, it is Pooh-bah's well-reasoned, solidly-
documented offerings of proof of the Holocaust, responded to by your ill-
considered diatribes.
b.) "hottest topics": This topic is not "hot," except among klansmen and
Nazis. What's "hot" is your audacity.
c.) "all you notice...same time" I noticed it, too. And isn't it funny how
McCarthy (as in Charlie) Rungu seems to have disappeared?
You're no Edgar Bergen, Raven: We could still see your lips moving.
Friedman
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Message 342 Thu Mar 19, 1992
ERIC-M at 02:29 EST
>>> POOH.BAH
> Oh well.....maybe his silence means that he agrees with me.
That's what I take it to mean. I take it to mean that whenever he does not
rebute any of your arguments, he simply has nothing to rebut, and that your
documented evidence then stands unchallenged.
Don't worry about typing for nothing. Lots of people (at least 1 ) are
reading your psots. :-)
/
|/ ric
|/
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Message 343 Thu Mar 19, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 02:41 EST
#330
> Please realize that I speak no German, am not a historian,
> have more than a fully-item job doing something completely
> unrelated to this topic, and so must be satisfied with
> I can pick up in my spare time.
Excellent self-promotion. By the way, what is a "fully-item job?"
#340
> If you strive for accuracy, you will point out...that your
> characterizations of Bradley Smith, Mark Weber, the IHR,
> and others is hardly unbiased (or correct).
As I recall, much of it was in the form of quotes. Are those quotes accurate
or inaccurate? Seems to me they speak pretty well for themselves.
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Message 344 Thu Mar 19, 1992
C.MAIER [Claire] at 02:58 EST
Did anyone see Reasonable Doubts on March 17? I thought it was very well
done.
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Message 345 Thu Mar 19, 1992
P.PAVLOVSKY at 03:12 EST
...a young lady (a Jew) remembers that the first time she saw
numbers tattooed on somebody's arm when she was 13 or 14 years old.
Only then her mother told her about concentration camps...
...a young man (a Christian) is surprised that the pope John Paul
II was in a Nazi slave camp. He thought that only Jews were the
victims of Nazis.
These are just two examples of ignorance (in these cases of two
Genie participants) that prepare the soil for seeds of lies and
perversion.
Too often we see the number of the Nazi victims reduced from eleven
million to six million, so it looks like only Jews were killed and
the other victims are only "gentiles" or "non-Jews" not worthy to
be mentioned. The WWII usually has no place in such a picture. That
notion is not exactly denial of the part of Nazi atrocities, just
omitting a part of the history.
There are stories I heard over and over when I was a kid. Imagine
no TV; so people talked more to each other. Much of their
conversations was about the war, hunger, suffering, death and more
death.
Now somebody says that my family is a bunch of liars, that Nazis
actually didn't want to kill anybody, that three members of my
family were killed by an accident. One of them may be classified as
a provocateur because when SS came for him he new it is his time
and kept walking out from them. Wasn't such a behavior too foolish
and theatrical? Maybe he should let them to choose more appropriate
time and place to shoot him.
What about those two thousand death Jews whose bodies my grandpa
and other men were forced to cover in a pit. Did he made it up to
amuse me?
Are two names of my wife's relatives on the wall in the Old-New
synagogue in Prague only a part of a mosaic decoration? We don't
know how they died. Gas chamber? Gallows? Typhus? Does it really
matter?
How easy can Nazis fool people? It depends...
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Message 346 Thu Mar 19, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 03:50 EST
Isn't it nice that someone who has no knowledge of German and no experience in
history feels that he has the ability to pass judgement on the existence of
the Holocaust? It's the equivalent of saying, "I don't know anything about it,
but it didn't happen."
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Message 347 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:27 EST
323 Raven:
Butz (a Holocaust Denier) says:
"Liberal and conservative publicists, though they have very different
attitudes toward World War II and America's entry into it, and though they
squabble with each other on almost everything else, close ranks on the
reality of the holocaust [sic]."
CODOH's ad says:
"We debate every other great historical issue as a matter of course, but
influential pressure groups with private agendas have made the Holocaust an
exception."
Raven says:
"Similarly, no two exterminationist historians seems to agree on much, unless
they are copying each other."
Don't you just love the way Holocaust Denial works. First, claim that there
is no debate. Claim that "influential pressure groups" prevent it. Then, if
someone knows enough about the historical debate that is going on, claim that
that debate PROVES that there was no Holocaust.
Raven, did you learn how to do this intellectual work from Bradley?
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Message 348 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:28 EST
324 Raven:
> You should have pointed out that until quite recently, those presently in
> charge of the Auschwitz camp maintained that 4 million people ... the
> majority of which were Jews ... were murdered at Auschwitz.
Maybe you should try reading some factual material for a while. Yes, those in
charge of Auschwitz (i.e. the Polish gov't) did claim that 4 million had been
exterminated in POLAND (as opposed to Auschwitz only). Slight difference,
isn't it?
No historian has ever claimed such a number was exterminated at Auschwitz.
The Polish gov't, BTW, never claimed that most of those exterminated were
Jews. In fact, they made quite a point to avoid any mention that Jews were
involved.
> Now this number has been revised downward to roughly one million. How does
> this happen? How come we still hear about 6 million Jewish deaths? Whose
> math are we using, anyway?
Well, this happens when the Polish gov't brings their plaque in line with
historical reality. You are right that we shouldn't still be hearing about 6
million Jewish deaths. With recent access to the Nazis documents from the
Riga archives, we now know that there are at least 250,000 MORE Jewish deaths
than had previously been reported.
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Message 349 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:29 EST
325 Raven:
> I could have sworn I read that Jews who converted to Christianity were
well
> treated by the Nazis. . .
Have you heard about not taking false oaths? Have you ever read the Nuremberg
Law of 1935? Do you have any idea how the Nazis defined who was and who
wasn't
a Jew? These are very basic facts regarding the Nazis, anti-Semitism, the
Third
Reich, etc. You don't even know this much?
The Nazis defined someone as being Jewish if 3 of the grandparents were
Jewish...the religion didn't matter in the least. Have you even heard that
the
Nazis decided that Jews were a "race" and not just a religion?
> (the Roman Catholic Church flourished during Hitler's rule, for those who
> do not know it).
Yeah, right. With this act you could make it onto the stage at Evening at the
Improv.
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity.
Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the
Jew."
Adolph Hitler
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Message 350 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:30 EST
327 Raven:
> So it wasn't Hitler, and it wasn't any of his general staff, and it wasn't
> even the Einsatzgruppen (not really), but instead it was the indigenous
> populations who murdered millions of Jews ...
Mind if I teach you a little lesson? You might be able to get away with the
above if we were discussing this face-to-face without it being transcribed.
However, if you wish to twist words here, they will get thrown back up in
your
face.
You see, I posted a few excerpts from the Einsatzgruppen Reports. Then, you
posted the following response:
>> You have left out of your postings many germaine points. First, it should
>> be mentioned that the Einsatzgruppen never numbered more than about
3,000
>> people, and some of this complement was in the form of administrators,
>> secretaries (including women), teletype and radio operators, truck
drivers,
>> and interpreters. Hardly the make-up of a purpose-built killing squad.
>> Furthermore, you neglected to mention that the Einsatzgruppen were only
in
>> existence for a relatively short time, and had other chores to which
they
>> had to attend.
To which I replied:
> Are you forgetting or are you not aware of the auxiliary groups that were
> composed of local populations and the pogroms that were incited. I would
> like to refer you to Reports 8, 14, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26, 38, 40, 43, 48,
etc.
You do know the meaning of "auxiliary groups," don't you?
From Webster's New World Dictionary, Second Edition:
auxiliary: 1. giving help or aid; assisting or supporting; 2. acting in a
subsidiary or subordinate capacity; 3. additional; supplementary; reserve.
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Message 351 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:30 EST
328 Raven:
> I apologize for not knowing the difference between Hilberg (the
> Intentionalist) and Mayer (the Functionalist). I guess the logical
> extension of your differentiation between these two is that because
> they disagree on major points history, the Holocaust must have
> occurred.
Let's see. So far we've been able to determine that you are unfamiliar with
history and have a limited vocabulary which does not include the word,
"auxiliary." Now, I guess, you are trying to tell us something about your
reading skills. Hmmm.....now what WAS it that I said? Oh, yeah, here it is:
> To understand the importance to this discussion of these two schools, you
> need to know a little about what the Holocaust Deniers say about Holocaust
> history. From one of their ads that they run on college campuses we find:
>> We debate every other great historical issue as a matter of course, but
>> influential pressure groups with private agendas have made the Holocaust
>> story an exception.
> Obviously, considering that the two Holocaust history schools of thought
are
> so different from each other, the above quote from the ad, like the rest
of
> the text, is false. I can also tell you that the debate between the two
> schools is very heated at times. For instance, in the "Yad Vashem Studies
> XIX, 1988" (an annual publication of the recent scholarly investigations
> into the Holocaust), there is a heated debate in the first article that
> continues for 50 pages between an Intentionalist and a Functionalist.
Gee, I guess that means that it would logically follow that the Holocaust
Deniers are not telling the truth that there is no debate on the Holocaust.
Even CODOH's ad states: "We debate EVERY [emphasis mine] great historical
issue
as a matter of course...." Does that then mean, Greg, that you think that ALL
historical events didn't happen because they are debated?
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Message 352 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:31 EST
330 Raven:
> In the 1985 edition, I find Hilberg's statement in Chapter 4 (Mobile
> Killing Operations), sub-section The First Sweep, sub-sub-section The
> Killing Operations and Their Repercussions, in the paragraph
> immediately after a list of German words translated to English. In my
> copy, this is page 134, second paragraph up from the bottom. He says,
> "Generally speaking, we find in the reports one overall justification
> for the killings: the Jewish danger."
Boy, this sure explains a lot. You have the single volume of Hilberg. Come on
up to the big leagues sometime. In the 3 volume set, the quote is in Chapter
SEVEN and on page 329...and that's in the FIRST volume. See what all you're
missing?
Now, it is possible that what you quoted from Hilberg is all that your little
single volume has....but I doubt it. Read along with me. If there are any
words
you don't understand, I'll be glad to explain them to you.
Aside from terminology designed to convey the notion that the killing
operations were only an ordinary bureaucratic process within the
framework of police activity, we find - in logical but not
psychological contradiction - that the commanders of the
Einsatzgruppen constructed various justifications for the killings.
The significance of these rationalizations will be readily apparent
once we consider that the Einsatzgruppen did not have to give any
reasons to Heydrich; they had to give reasons only to themselves.
Generally speaking, we find in the reports one overall justification
for the killings: the Jewish danger. This fiction was used again and
again, in many variations.
Here are the key words, see if you can find them in the above quote:
justifications, rationalizations, fiction. Need any of them defined, Greg?
> I can't help it if there are exterminationist historians who disagree
> with you.
As you can see, Hilberg and I are in total agreement on this point. BTW, you
seem not to know what an "appeal to authority" is. Do you need a lesson in
logic as well?
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Message 353 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:32 EST
331 Raven:
> You see, once you discard the preconception that the Holocaust happened and
> accept the possibility that the Nazis may not have been monsters, a lot of
> things start to make sense.
Yeah? Name one.
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Message 354 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:33 EST
331 Raven:
> I realize that Mayer does not deny the Holocaust ... which is
> precisely why he is of such great interest. Here is someone who
> professes to believe in the Holocaust, yet feels compelled to
> jettison much of the standard Holocaust thesis in order to save some
> remnant of the Big Picture.
BTW, you misspelled Holocaust in your message but I corrected it when I
quoted
you above.
Once again, I remind you of the words of Butz and the CODOH ad. They claim
that
there should be debate and you, apparently, believe that there shouldn't be
debate. Which is it, Greg? And, if you do not want discussion of the facts,
why
did you open this TOPic.
You know, when you make these lazy statements, your agenda slips out from
under
your monitor and is plainly seen:
You: "There isn't open debate which proves the Holocaust didn't happen."
Me: "You're wrong. There is open debate."
You: "See, historians don't agree therefore that means the Holocaust didn't
happen."
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Message 355 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:33 EST
333 Raven:
> What you are saying basically is that the Einsatzgruppen reports YOU
> quote can be used to prove a point, but the ones I quote are to be
> dismissed.
No, that is not what I'm saying. Historical research demands that ALL the
documents must be viewed in relation to each other. The documents that I
quoted
indicate that Jews were killed for "belonging to the Jewish race" or being
"Jews in general." I also quoted from one of the documents that the Jews had
caused no problems. All of this must be reconciled. That is why Hilberg might
say one thing and Mayer says another. This is what makes for true historical
debate.
Now, how can these facts be reconciled? First, we know that Jews are no
different than any other group of human beings - some good, some not so good,
some not so bad and some bad. We also know that some Jews were members of
partisan groups which we would probably consider good but the Nazis would
have
considered bad.
Were all the Jews that were killed by the Einsatzgruppen killed for
"belonging
to the Jewish race" and for no other reason? I never said they were.
Therefore,
all I need to do to prove that Jews were being killed for "belonging to the
Jewish race" is to show one example where that was the case. You, OTOH,
maintain that NO Jews were killed simply for "belonging to the Jewish race."
Therefore, where a single example proves my case, that same example disproves
your case. Sorry.
> Of course, you have used that same argument when I quote
> exterminationists who don't toe your line.
You DO have a problem with vocabulary, don't you? When you say, X disagrees
with you and don't include what X said or wrote, that is NOT "quoting." That
is
asserting. If you also don't include a reference, then it becomes an
unsubstantiated claim. What you have been doing is making unsubstantiated
claims. Even though you are not a historian, you should have picked this up
in,
at least, high school. I know I sure did.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 356 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:34 EST
334 Raven:
> Instead of merely typing these documents in, you should have read
> them also. They say nothing about mass execution of Jews.
I have read them but we now know that you have problems with vocabulary. So,
perhaps it would be beneficial for us to review the documents. Why don't you
start with the last four as a group and tell us your interpretation of them.
I'm
sure that there are many here who would be happy to help you with any words
you
don't quite understand. You are familiar with terms such as: liquidate and
slaughter, aren't you?
> You say the fact that there were two Madagascar Plans proves the Nazis
> weren't serious about finding a place to send the Jews?
Okay, I guess we will have to re-read this one, too.
>> There were TWO Madagascar Plans. One was formulated by the RSHA and the
>> other by the SS. Neither plan was finalized nor accepted by the Nazi
>> hierarchy as THE Madagascar Plan so that raises a question as to how
>> serious that plan was in the scheme of the Final Solution.
Now, start with the third sentence (which is also the last one of this
quote).
It is NOT because there were two Madagascar Plans that questions are raised
but,
(now comes the sentence of importance) because neither plan was finalized nor
accepted. That raises questions about their seriousness but, if you will read
carefully, I never claimed that it PROVES they weren't serious. The rest of
the
documentation does that work.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 357 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:35 EST
335 Raven:
> I don't want to get into a discussion of whether the Jews are
> inferior or superior....
Too bad that you didn't want to....because you did. Thanks for showing us
your
agenda again.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 358 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:35 EST
336 Raven:
> Are you saying that evidence of Nazis disciplining their own kind for
> excessive behavior toward the Jews (and others) would be proof that
> there was no policy of extermination?
No, Carl is well aware that there is proof that UNAUTHORIZED cruelty was
punished. However it is interesting to note that Commandant Koch was executed
not for his cruelty but for stealing money from the inmates and NOT turning
it
over to the Reich. His (and his wife's) cruelty did come up in the case but
it
wasn't the deciding factor.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 359 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:36 EST
337 Raven:
> In other words, we know that the camps liberated by the Allies were
> not extermination camps. This leaves the camps liberated by the
> Communists.
Boy, your history IS faulty, isn't it? In case you didn't know, the USSR WAS
one of the Allies! I assume that is to whom you were referring by saying
"Communists," right?
> Which means that most of the evidence (including the bulk
> of that at the Nuremberg trials, etc.) must have come from behind the
> Iron Curtain. You will excuse me, I hope, if I demur at accepting ANYTHING
> the Communists say about anything.
Wrong. Most of the evidence came from the Nazi documents and most of the Nazi
documents were captured by the US. Now, would you like to allege that the US
tampered with them?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 360 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 04:37 EST
338 Raven:
> If you strive for accuracy, you will point out to your eager fans
> that your characterizations of Bradley Smith, Mark Weber, the IHR,
> and others is hardly unbiased (or correct).
Let's work on that vocabulary again, shall we?
characterization: the act of characterizing; description of characteristics.
characterize: to describe or portray the particular qualities, features, or
traits of
What qualities, features or traits did I describe for any of the above?
I stated that Bradley and Mark are co-directors of CODOH. Are they not? I
quoted directly from Bradley's own book (I could have used quotes from
interviews, too, but they might have misquoted him). I quoted Staeglich's own
words and stated facts about Felderer and Faurisson which are part of the
public record. As far as that is concerned, so are Mark Weber's former
associations. I also quoted Carto's own words and I never drew any conclusion
from any of the above.
Are you now trying to tell us that you object to the fact that when people
see
something that walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck
that
they tend to call it a duck?
> And Pooh.bah, you continued sleights against the above-named, Fred
> Leuchter, and others, is unwarranted and out of place ... if you
> truly have the proof you claim to have. It should not matter if
> Hitler himself was on the staff of the IHR ... if you cannot make
> your case without resorting to personal defamation, perhaps you
> should reexamine your position.
Ah, how soon they forget. Here, out of your own mouth (or, rather, keyboard)
is
the following:
>> Does this property also account for the tales of professional liars such
as
>> Elie Wiesel, who claims that the ground spurted blood afterwards?
Do you need another vocabulary lesson? A statement of facts which are part of
the public record is not defamation. However, your calling Elie Wiesel a
professional liar is. You haven't quite mastered this tactic of the Deniers,
yet, Greg. It needs a little work. To do it well, you have to remember what
you
said just a few moments before and not become your own judge and executioner.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 361 Thu Mar 19, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 05:35 EST
We Remember
and Memorialize
10,000 Homosexuals who displeased
the NAZI MASTERS
Because they dared to believe differently
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
WE SHALL NEVER FORGET
IT DID OCCUR
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 362 Thu Mar 19, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 06:48 EST
Oh, Pooh.Bah-
Nice job, you have destroyed all his "points" with hard cold facts. He/They
have only admission of what they don't know.
German, history, biology etc. Makes one wonder hoew they can consider
themslever qualified doesn't it?
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 363 Thu Mar 19, 1992
S.JACQUES at 08:14 EST
And the communists too. I nkow it is hard to generate sympathy for
communists in the US, but I don't think being a communist deserves
the death penalty, and they werre the first to go, weren't they?
Van
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 364 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:40 EST
314 CRaven:
>To AH.STEIN (regarding 229) ----- So you know a woman who saw the "earth
over the mass graves at Babi Yar heave for days (or was it weeks?) after
the mass executions there"? Wow. Tell me, what special properties must
these corpses have had to cause this phenomenon?
Not being a medical expert, I can only report about what happened, not the
biological reasons why. Perhaps you should consult with your fellow
Holocaust Denial expert, admitted liar Leuchter.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 365 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:41 EST
314 CRaven:
>Does this property also account for the tales of professional liars such
as Elie Wiesel ...
The nobel laureate is a very clever man, who actually began masterminding a
public relations campaign as a small child, when he cleverly arranged to be
placed in one of Hitler's special resorts for Jews that are sometimes
referred to as concentration camps. (Of course, you know better.)
The resorts were so fabulous that the Jews neglected to eat; they were
having so much fun playing hide and seek with the resort personnel,
sometimes lovingly referred to as SS or Gestapo. In fact, they were having
so much fun that they never even noticed their friends dying from
self-inflicted malnutrition.
Mr. Wiesel revealed all this to me a few years ago when I had the privilege
of speaking with him privately. That's not exactly what he said, but I'm
very good at reading between the lines. He's a very inspiring person; in
fact, after meeting with him, I was inspired to visit Babi Yar myself and
was able to confirm that the heaving was not caused by decomposing bodies
but rather by the hot air coming out of the mouths of Einsatzgruppen troops
excitedly talking about how much fun they were having with their Jewish
playmates.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 366 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:41 EST
319 Pooh.Bah:
>Since I posted them, he has logged on and had the time to respond to
Alan.....therein illustrating his wonderful lack of knowledge of
decomposition and anarobic bacteria.....but doesn't even say "hi" to me.
Don't be upset. Graven didn't bother to say "hi" to me either; he just
took the time to libel a nobel laureate.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 367 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:42 EST
323 GRaven:
> On a more personal note, one of the reasons I find Holocaust
revisionist so compelling is that there seems to be a great deal of
"revisionism" going on within the exterminationist camp.
In the tradition of one of your colleagues, Mr. Leuchter, the admitted
liar, let me practice psychology without a license. On a personal note, I
believe the reason you find debunking one of the greatest tragedies of
human history so compelling is that you have some problem with Jews.
Am I wrong about that? Are some of your best friends Jewish?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 368 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:42 EST
326 Craven:
>I could have sworn I read that Jews who converted to Christianity were
well treated by the Nazis ...
The survivors of Edith Stein (or was it Stern?) must be delighted to hear
that.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 369 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:42 EST
328 GRaven:
> I apologize for not knowing the difference between Hilberg (the
Intentionalist) and Mayer (the Functionalist).
No need to apologize for your ignorance. If you apologized for your every
exhibition of ignorance or misinformation, you'd be doubling the volume of
your messages. We're all quite content with your present volume.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 370 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:42 EST
330 GRaven:
>If this is an appeal to authority, I apologize again. Please realize
that I speak no German, am not a historian, ...
No need to apologize again. It's been pretty obvious that you're no
historian. In fact, it's pretty obvious that you're no Jack Kennedy,
either.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 371 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:43 EST
337 GRaven:
> It is not my position to "deny" all excesses on the part of the Third
Reich, ...
That's mighty white of you.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 372 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:43 EST
339 GRaven:
>You will excuse me, I hope, if I demur at accepting ANYTHING
the Communists say about anything.
Likewise, you will excuse me, I hope, if I demur at accepting ANYTHING you
say about anything?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 373 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:43 EST
340 GRaven:
>If you strive for accuracy, you will point out to your eager fans
that your characterizations of Bradley Smith, Mark Weber, the IHR,
and others is hardly unbiased (or correct).
Ah, this is one of your most accurate posts. You are half correct. Pooh's
characterization, though correct, is indeed biased.
You're making progress. Perhaps soon we'll see a post from you that is 60%
accurate.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 374 Thu Mar 19, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:43 EST
346 scaramouche:
>Isn't it nice that someone who has no knowledge of German and no
experience in history feels that he has the ability to pass judgement on
the existence of the Holocaust? It's the equivalent of saying, "I don't
know anything about it, but it didn't happen."
I was thinking the same thing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 375 Thu Mar 19, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 18:53 EST
Scaramouche (346): Well said. I'm reminded of a statement that Harlan
Ellison made, in response to a comment that everyone was entitled to
their opinion. He denied this, saying that people were only entitled to
*informed* opinions.
It doesn't take much brainpower to come up with knee-jerk rationales
to explain knee-jerk prejudices concerning complex issues. It sure takes
far less brainpower to do so than to actually bother to learn about a
subject on which you're willing to spout off.
Raven - you say that you neither know German, history, or political
science. Logic and rhetoric apparently are sore points as well. Yet you
make a number of bald assertions, parroting people who also lack critical
faculties. Scaramouche is quite right. Isn't it a wee bit arrogant, don't
you think, to claim ignorance of the tools needed for historical research,
but claim that an event well within the living memory of millions never
happened?
Aside from the fact, of course, that this discussion is ceasing to be
a debate. I'm mindful of a minor league hockey game I saw recently, in
which my team routed their foes. Contemptuously, they beat the opponent
in every aspect of the game, shutting down their offense, slashing through
the defense as if it wasn't there. The enemy looked quite befuddled out
on the ice, not knowing precisely what to do, having their every action
easily countered. What Pooh-Bah is doing to Raven looks an awful lot like
that game.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan <* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 376 Thu Mar 19, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 18:59 EST
Mr. Raynor persists in offering public swipes against me. I think that he
should refrain.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 377 Thu Mar 19, 1992
SPEAKER at 19:28 EST
I sift through the ashes and what do I find? The lives and dreams and hopes of
those who have died. The survivors have given voice to their strife - they've
borne witness to days of torturous life. Some of the perpetrators have told of
their crime - orders were followed without reason or rhyme. Yet, through it
all we have lost stories galore of those who perished in the madness of the
storm. Here, then, I step up to speak of lives so precious and deaths so
bleak. Listen if you dare to the tales I tell: I speak of what I know and that
I know well.
Through the eyes of a child, I travel in time. This child lived the things
that come only in the terrors of the night. Come and sit by the campfire, this
ghost story will be told. This one is new. This one is true.
----------------------
The Garden
A little garden,
Fragrant and full of roses.
The path is narrow
And a little boy walks along it.
A little boy, a sweet boy,
Like that growing blossom.
When the blossom comes to bloom,
The little boy will be no more.
------------------------
A child's hand scrawled these words and signed them Franta Bass. The full
first name had been given as Frantisek eight days after birth. September 4,
1930 was a joyous day in Brno. That was the day when Franta was presented to
the world. A lifetime later, on October 28, 1944, the world bid goodbye. Was
there anyone left at Auschwitz to cry? Who said Kaddish? Who marked the day?
Franta lived 14 years, 1 month and 24 days.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 378 Thu Mar 19, 1992
CLAIRE at 20:19 EST
#338 RAVEN:
> If you strive for accuracy, you will point out to your eager fans
> that your characterizations of Bradley Smith, Mark Weber, the IHR,
> and others is hardly unbiased (or correct).<<
What I saw here were direct quotes. They allow discerning readers
to draw their own conclusions about their originators. To me, for
example, they strongly suggest deeply-rooted racism and a profound
lack of education.
But then again, maybe Smith and Carto were just having a really bad
day.
> ...I speak no German, am not a historian, have more than a fully-
> item job doing something completely unrelated to this topic, and
> so must be satisfied with what I can pick up in my spare time.
Perhaps your argument would be better served, then, by someone who
has the time and resources to present a more convincing POV than what you've
put forth so far. It shouldn't come as a surprise when unsubstantiated beliefs
(or the results of flawed research) are torn to shreds by someone who's made
the time to find the facts.
I suggest that being "satisfied with what you can pick up in your spare time"
demonstrates only that you are easily satisfied. Understand that others may be
a little more choosy than that.
claire
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 379 Thu Mar 19, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 20:22 EST
>> Are you saying that evidence of Nazis disciplining their own kind
>>for excessive behavior toward the Jews (and others) would be proof
>>that there was no policy of extermination?
No. I'm saying that evidence that of Nazis following their orders to
exterminate Jews is pretty darn convincing evidence that the extermination
really did happen.
Let me add something from my background in biology: debate does not equal
doubt. Every serious biologist for the last century has recognized the
overwhelming evidence for the FACT of evolution. Nevertheless, there has been
a healthy and fascinating debate on the MECHANISM of evolution, which
continues to this day.
Some Creationists ("evolution deniers"?) use the existence of a debate
between, say, the neo-Darwinians and the Punctuated Equilibrists as evidence
that "Biologists don't believe in evolution!" Of course we do (although we
wouldn't use the word "believe"). We just don't agree on exactly HOW it
happened.
Similarly, the Functionalists may not agree with the Intentionalists on WHY
the Holocaust occured, but that doesn't in any way imply that they don't agree
THAT it occured.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 380 Thu Mar 19, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:18 EST
Raven: Are you going to retrack your statement that Elie Wiesel is a
"professional liar" and that he said that blood spurted from the ground at
Babi Yar? Or, do you want me to post exactly what Elie Wiesel said and have
you lose any vestiage of credibility that MIGHT still remain?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 381 Thu Mar 19, 1992
R.ARBETMAN at 23:44 EST
I concur with Alan Stein's comments made today.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 382 Thu Mar 19, 1992
P.BOBBITT [Paul] at 23:45 EST
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< TO: P.NANSON >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmm. I'm visiting a friend in New York now, and although we're sitting only a
few feet away, I'm talking on a laptop connected to GEnie that says I'm
sending from Toronto. Perhaps M.RUNGU and Raven live in different places, but
are actually together on a visit, or something.
Of course, this could just be off topic. It's more important to deal with the
issues like Pooh.bah is than how the issues are being sent.
>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 383 Fri Mar 20, 1992
DD.LANGDON at 00:23 EST
Raven,
I have yet to see you produce any proof that the Holocaust did not occur. You
have done a lot of talking but have not said much. Time to put up or shut up.
Prove your point or admit your wrong.
Dan Langdon
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 384 Fri Mar 20, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:54 EST
To Pooh.Bah (regarding 316) ---
So you are saying that when buried bodies decompose, they make the
ground heave and tremble? I guess I WILL have to consult a physiology
text!
As for the Wiesel quote, you will find it in Paroles d'etranger,
Editions du Seuil, page 86. There he says, "Later, I learned from a
witness that, for month after month, the ground never stopped
trembling; and that, from time to time, geyserss of blood spurted
from it."
You will probably say that Wiesel is quoting someone else. I gotta
tell you, though, when I was a kid, my dad told me it was okay to
steal from big corporations, one of my friends told me that if you
fell out of an airplane you would die before you hit the ground, and
my teachers told me that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was
unprovoked. Not a one of these statement is correct, which is why I
don't go around repeating them ... even as quotes from someone else.
Of course, this is far from the only whopper Mr. Wiesel has ever
told.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 385 Fri Mar 20, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:55 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 317) ---
If the Germans claimed they had 11 million Jews, they are alone in
their demographics.
I will be pleased to talk about crematoria when we get to that point.
And I will gladly document my sources. In fact, I called a funeral
home just a few days ago, and was told that the FIRST STAGE of the
cremation process takes 2 to 3 hours, depending on the body. Because
the German crematoria were no better than modern crematoria, there is
no way they could handle 10,000 corpses in 24 hours. This is
ridiculous on the face of it, and is counter to the claims of some of
the so-called eyewitnesses at Auschwitz. By the way, I can't wait to
get to the discussion about open pit burning.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 386 Fri Mar 20, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:55 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 319) ---
I am sorry that my schedule does not meet with your approval. I have
but limited time and limited resources for pursuing this discussion.
If you can exercise just a bit of patience, I think you will find
that I get around to all your questions eventually. There is no need
for you to put words in my mouth.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 387 Fri Mar 20, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 02:20 EST
And now, from the home offices, on location and broadcasting out of Rockaway,
NJ (Exit 37 off Rt. 80)...It's Greg Raven's top 10 things that NEVER happened!
10.) Slavery of blacks in America (Hey, do YOU know any?)
9.) Watergate (You've even got a primary source: "I am NOT a crook")
8.) The Spanish Inquisition (Columbus was a Zionist, after all)
7.) Disco (well, okay, we all believe that one, too.)
6.) Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK (actually, it was Ollie Stone!)
5.) Fred Malek counted up the Jews in the Labor Dept. (qv. #9)
4.) FDR ran the country (he was actually a puppet of the dirty Zionists)
3.) The A-bombings of Japan (Just a sympathy plot by Japan to get us to open
our markets to their goods)
2.) David Duke was a racist (He wore the sheets & pillowcases to hide a skin
disease or other deformity. PROOF: His plastic surgery)
And NUMBER ONE (Some disco, please, Paul...): <--note the pun, ):
#1.) Paul McCartney survived past the mid-60's. (His evil twin married Linda
and formed Wings).
(Hmm...actually I like Wings, sorta)
Dave
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 388 Fri Mar 20, 1992
TERMY at 02:21 EST
It would seem there are two valid side issues to this discussion, issues which
bear some notice. These two issues are motivation and credibility.
Mr. Raven and Mr/Ms Rungu (if still inclined to post here) should clear up a
few points of conflict in their posts, lest we see cause to doubt their
credibility.
The latter, in message #3, stated s/he knew very little about Holocaust, but
was interested in learning. On Sat., 14 March, Mr. Raven informed them of Mr.
Butz' book. On Sunday, a copy of said book was delivered to Mr/Ms Rungu and
an instant expert was made. This raises interesting questions concerning the
number of firms which deliver on Sundays.
Further posts by Mr/Ms Rungu indicate that this individual's knowledge of
Holocaust was truly growing by leaps and bounds. In a matter of hours Mr/Ms
Rungu was suddenly familiar with the names of various historians cited by both
Pooh.Bah and Mr. Raven, and displayed more than cursory knowledge of the works
authored by these historians. If we're to believe this, we can only conclude
that Mr/Ms Rungu is one of history's all-time "quick study's". IF we are to
believe this...
Mr. Raven & Mr/Ms Rungu, in their early posts (#1-40) intimated that they were
unacquainted with one another, yet later posts clearly show a cooperative
effort on their part. I believe Paul Nanson & Jon W. have noted this apparent
contradiction, as have others, citing posts, if memory serves, #230-239 as
evidence...
Both Mr. Raven and Mr/Ms Rungu carry what may be reasonably termed as
questionable credibility, at least in these specifics. My curiousity aroused,
I have to wonder what other statements made by these individuals are of less
than acceptable accuracy. Could it be that they have incorrectly identified
themselves as being non- aligned with various organizations which actively
promote and foster anti-Semitic feelings? If evidence shows clearly that
these individuals have been, shall we say, less than truthful in two or more
instances, what credence should we give their assertions that they do not
belong to the KKK, or other similar groups?
It seems likely, especially when we recall Mr. Raven's explanation of how the
Jews, supposedly an inferior race, were capable of mastering a superior
(presumably "Aryan") race.
Mr. Raven, Mr/Ms Rungu, you may consider this a formal request to clarify the
situation. I do not presume to judge you guilty without hearing a defense.
Be aware that I've collected considerable evidence supporting the above, and
that such evidence may be aired in response to what you have to say in
accounting for yourselves.
Your cooperation in clearing up these no doubt easily resolved discrepancies
and their attendent destruction of your credibility is eagerly anticipated.
Gary R. Raper, Jr.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 389 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:32 EST
To POOH.BAH
I am back again (I know how deeply I was missed by everybody). Looking at your
very selective Einsatzgruppen readings and then reading Mr. Raven's selections
in rebuttal to yours, it becomes clear that you are not seriously interested
in ascertaining the historical facts on the holocaust. You seem to have
selected only those reports that support your position.
Concerning your comments about Lithuania and how "spontaneous pogroms occurred
in all the towns", I think you are right. The peoples of the Baltic republics
(as well as in the Ukraine and EVERYWHERE in the East that the Germans swept
out the Soviets) clearly remembered the holocaust perpetrated upon themselves
by the Soviet commissars and by the NKVD, and how the leaders and organizers
of these massacres were in fact Jews. The "pogroms" you mentioned were acts
of revenge towards Jews, and in no way can be attributed to the German
authorities.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 390 Fri Mar 20, 1992
P.NANSON at 02:35 EST
**** Sysop - delete this post ****
Re: Message 338
G.RAVEN;
> To Paul Nanson (regarding 297) --- Here we are discussing one of
>the hottest topics around and all you notice is that two people
>posted messages at the same time?
Yes, I find it quite interesting - especially at 2:20am EST - 12:20am your
time. The only thing interesting about this topics is that there are people
hateful enough to try and cover up the holocaust and the fact that GEnie is
allowing them to do it.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 391 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:35 EST
To POOH.BAH
I would like to redefine your "intentionalists" and "functionalists"
holocaustspeak terminology. The "intention" of holocaust propaganda is to
create a gigantic and fraudulent guilt complex amongst the peoples of the
West, to the immense financial benefit of Jews worldwide and to the
financial, political and diplomatic benefit of the Israeli state in
particular. The "functionalists" are those professional functionaries (or
professional "survivors") who carry out the tasks of creating the myth/legends
and intensifying the guilt inculcation, such as Elie the Wiesel et al.
How do you like my new definitions? They are certainly more accurate than
yours.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 392 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:38 EST
To AH.STEIN
We are not a "motley crew" attempting to "rewrite history". What I and others
who have a serious interest in this historical period known as the holocaust
are trying to do, is to help to bring history into accord with the facts; to
de-emotionalize events; to de-demonize the historical personalities involved.
Much of history AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN in recent years is false, and in that
sense at least some of it, i.e. the false and inaccurate or tendentious
portions, do indeed need to be rewritten.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 393 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:40 EST
To J.WEISBERGE1
Far from wanting to "stray from the truth", I think it is important that we
view the 1933-1945 period dispassionately and that we all make a serious
commitment to historical truth. To do so, we need to escape the ahistorical
MYTHs and UNtruths - that is my commitment. It should be yours.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 394 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:44 EST
To C.FINK4
Mr. Fink, I will say again that there is a great deal that I do not know about
the holocaust, but I am learning. A willingness on my part to see the OTHER
side (i.e. the side opposing the historical dogmas) is not the same as making
any claim or implied claim to be "knowledgeable" about the subject.
But I will tell that there is one thing I have learned. The "revisionists"
that challenge certain aspects of the holocaust have and are approaching the
issue in a scholarly and serious, as well as a dispassionate manner. The
defenders of holocaust dogma (and I really have to use that word, DOGMA, I
don't know what else anybody could call it) are, on the other hand, shrill,
hysterical, hyper-emotional, unbelievably personal and insulting, and non-
serious. Frankly, so far, the revisionist case is coming out as the clear
winner.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 395 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:55 EST
To C.FINK and POOH.BAH,
Your comments about the 1933 elections which brought Hitler the
Chancellorship are misleading, false, and yet quite relevant to our discussion
of the holocaust, for they illustrate the methods of distortion and propaganda
employed by the holocausters.
The July 31st 1932 elections brought the NSDAP no less than 230 seats out of
608. That 230 represented the NSDAP as by far the biggest party in Germany,
the party with the most popular support, far more support, in fact, than any
other party. You know this. It was a democratic election and yet Hindenburg
denied Hitler the Chancellorship because he regarded Hitler as too "radical".
The November 6th 1932 elections brought the NSDAP 196 seats, a drop of 34
seats. Nevertheless, it was still THE biggest party in Germany and an
absolutely indisputable twice-over showing to Hindenburg that the people of
Germany had chosen their man. These election results brought about the
negotiations that gave Hitler the Chancellorship.
To deny that Hitler was democratically elected is sheer nonsense and you know
it. Incidentally, the March 5th 1933 elections brought the NSDAP 288
seats...
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 396 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 02:56 EST
RUNGU-
Funny, Pooh.Bah has been calm logical and dispasionate. She has poster
literaly hundreds of cites and example.
So far you sides posion seem to based on cries of "it never happened",
"everything was forged", and then followed by statemnts saying,
you don't know much and are trying to learn. Then a few message later you
display familearity with obscure peices of offcal paper.
You have also displayed a woeful lack of knowledge about the decompostion
of large amounts of dead animals or humans.
You have libeled a nobel lauriate, and called seveal people names.
I see nothing from you side that is more than groundless inflamatory
nonsesne.
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 397 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:59 EST
To C.MAIER,
Your references to the emaciated people of the camps is utterly meaningless.
What is it supposed to prove? That people were emaciated, which nobody
denies, or that they "prove" an "extermination" campaign, which IS being
denied? One might ask that if, as is being claimed, the German authorities
were intent on destroying all these people, why did they not do just that. A
simple enough operation, quickly enough done, all the more so considering the
reputation the Germans enjoy as being super-efficient and super-organized.
Why merely retain all these people in all these camps for years and years when
they could have been quickly liquidated?
The collapse of Germany's food and medical supply systems, and the disruption
and/or collapse of the provision of medical supplies is a much better and more
sensible explanation, especially considering the efficacy of the allied
bombing campaigns with those very intents.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 398 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:02 EST
To P.NANSON,
So Mr. Raven and I, on a several occasions, are now "exposed" as submitting
messages in much the same time frames. What is that supposed to mean? What
exactly is being "exposed" here? Please remember that we are both on the West
Coast and are in the same time zone. This kind of fantasy and conspiracy
paranoia is really rather rediculous.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 399 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:05 EST
To D.BERKOWITZ,
The free and open discussion of the holocaust often necessitates the reminding
of various would-be speech suppressors that our Constitution does indeed
provide certain speech guarantees and safeguards. I know that this is
extremely frustrating to those who want topics like this suppressed and
silenced if they don't fit into convenient dogmatic confines, but our
Constitution is a reality.
I think it's nice that it can be waved around now and again. It's certainly
better than burning it or stomping on it as the deniers of free and open
expression found amongst the Holocaust camp would like to do. 8S
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 400 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:08 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14,
I don't see how the desire for a free and open discussion of the holocaust is
equivalent to "anti-semitism". That is your emotionalized interpretation, and
based upon nothing whatsoever. The Jewish people are just as much manipulated
by this issue as are non-Jews. Whether seen as "anti-semitism" or as a kind
of (rabid?) "semitism", it's an historical are chockablock full of
contradictions, lies, myths and distortions that need to be cleaned up.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 401 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:13 EST
To POOH.BAH,
I don't see how you can seriously deny that the Jews of Europe represented
security risks to the German occupation authorities. In France, deGaulle
himself described the French Resistance as mainly consisting of "Jews, Negroes
and Communists" (with an extremely heavy overlap of the first and last
categories). Remember that deGaulle was a leader of the "Free French" and that
he despised the "Resistance". The same kind of composition of the other
resistance movements throughout Europe had much the same heavy dominance of
Jews/Communists. This is historical fact and every historian knows it. Not
every historian is willing to talk about it, of course, but they all know it.
I remember reading "THE GREAT GAME" by Leopold Trepper. The (Jewish) author
and former 'Red Orchestra' member described his organization and all the Jews
in it, and how it was 'rolled up' by the German occupation authorities and how
one by one the individual members betrayed each other. The issue of whether
or not they were "security risks" to the authorities is quite clear, and also
illustrative.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 402 Fri Mar 20, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 03:14 EST
Strange, M.Rungu, that you place your faith in an individual who by his own
admission CANNOT read German, has no knowledge of the scholarly discipline of
history, engages in reading denial literature only in his spare time, and
tries to defend the notion that an "inferior" race can dominate a "superior"
one. One might almost think that you had ulterior motives.
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 403 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 03:20 EST
To POOH.BAH,
You brought up the issue of the Reichstag Fire; Fritz Tobias' study of the
same title holds as it main thesis that the German authorities had good reason
to believe that the fire was set by the KPD; the public utterances they made
about it and the measures they took against the KPD were not intended as
propaganda, but were serious. Tobias also holds, and convincingly, that the
KPD did not actually plan or set the fire or even necessarily know anything
about it, and I accept that. The German security apparatus erred, but
honestly, and this is what Tobias clearly found.
Now in what way is this relevant to our Holocaust discussion (although you did
bring up the Reichstag Fire, not I)? I will tell you. As the German police
rolled up the German Communist Party (KPD), a virtual horde of Jews were
brought in as party leaders, party organizers, party functionaries, etc. The
KPD in fact, more closely resembled, at least at the higher levels, a Jewish
bar mitzvah gathering rather than a "German" party. So the issue is, should
this be considered an aspect of a "planned extermination campaign" or not? I
don't think so. The targets were Communist leaders because they were
prominent Communists, not because they were Jews.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 404 Fri Mar 20, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 03:25 EST
Mary (Rungu):
We missed ya', kiddo. Where you been? For a minute, I thought this TOP had
been made 1/2 safe for humanity.
Well, like they say, "Too good to be true."
Friedman the pro-Semitic (and pro-Gentile and pro-Everybody), Zionist Jew
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 405 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:04 EST
To D. BERKOWITZ,
So "six million memorial messages are reasonable", huh? I guess this is the
kind of "discussion" that encapsulates the intellectual position held by the
so-called "exterminationists". Just message after puerile and emotionalized
messages, screenful after screenful drowning out the SERIOUS discussion that
would otherwise be appearing on the monitor screens.
The attempted intimidation of GENIE and the Sysops to have them suppress this
discussion have failed (at least so far, that is), so the endless
"remembrance" messages are used instead.
Why are you so opposed to a free and open discussion of the holocaust? If the
"exterminationists" have nothing to hide, why the attempts at repression?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 406 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:09 EST
To J.WEISBERGE1,
The measures you described that were taken by the German security agencies
against the German Communist Party (KPD) are factual, and nobody is trying to
deny those measures. Personally, I don't have any problem with them because I
frankly am not sympathetic to revolutionary communist organizations - but I
accept that we may be in disagreement there.
The "holocaust" was certainly a holocaust of communism throughout Europe;
which is precisely why the Communists of today HATE the Nazis so much - they
were the ONLY opponents that effectively kicked their posteriors so to speak,
EVER. The fact that so very many Jews in these various communist
organizations complicates the issue and it also ties it in with the holocaust
claims, since so many of the communists arrested or killed were Jewish.
The German security measures against the communists don't in any way "prove"
an "extermination campaign" of Jews. They would, however, indicate the
intention to "exterminate" communism as an effective force anywhere in Europe -
and frankly, I think that was a good thing to be eliminated.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 407 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:12 EST
To SPEAKER,
Gee, thanks a lot for the hyper-emotional tale or poem or whatever it was.
What is it supposed to prove, though? That somebody can write a poem or that
somebody has a lively imagination? Unfortunately, it appears to me that the
vast bulk of the "evidence" used to infer an "extermination campaign" does
indeed consist of just the kind of stuff you presented to us. In no way could
it be considered historiographical evidence, or "primary source material" or
anything at all except perhaps fantasy. (s
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 408 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:14 EST
To R.ARBETMAN,
I have to deny that anybody questioning aspects of the holocaust is
necessarily trying to "sanitize the third reich" or attempting to "make nazism
palatable again". Those are mere defamatory tactics intended to place the
credibility of "revisionists" in doubt, and based upon absolutely nothing
whatsoever except paranoic fantasy.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 409 Fri Mar 20, 1992
E.STEWART8 at 04:17 EST
To M.RUNGU,
There was only one security risk to nazis---HUMANITY.
Ed
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 410 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:19 EST
To P.PAVLOVSKY,
I have no doubt that you have heard many "stories" about the holocaust. So
have I. So has everybody. Nonstop. In fact, a veritable AVALANCHE of these
stories. I remember the stories about the human soap manufacture, about the
lampshades and purses made from the skin of "gassed" Jews. I remember the
tales and stories of "mass gassings at Dachau", babies eaten for breakfast,
etc. etc. etc. They were hordes of "eyewitnesses" and "survivors" attesting
to each and every one of these fantastic tales, each "survivor" and
"eyewitness" beating his/her chest, grinding his/her teeth, and moaning and
wailing. Yet today not only do I not see any historians accepting those kinds
of "stories", but they don't even make reference to them anymore, not even to
DENY them. It's like all these stories have disappeared into some kind of
memory hole...
These unreal stories are utterly unreliable and have been pronounced so even
by the so-called "holocaust museums" around the world. You can choose to
believe them if you wish, but understand clearly that they are of a fictional,
and not factual or historical, nature.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 411 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:26 EST
To G.RAVEN,
Yes, I have also noticed that the "exterminationist" camp is experiencing
their own "revisionism". The big difference is that the heated arguments
between the Hilbergs and the Mayers, between the Yad Vashem institutions and
the Elie Wiesels, is that it is all kept behind the scenes, it's all kept
quiet to "outsiders", and that the mass media carefully avoids these "in
house" historical debates.
A clear sign that something is going on is when we see a POOH.BAH
concentrating her efforts of the fatalities supposedly occurring amongst NON-
gassed Jews rather than the "gassed" ones. These purported "holocaust
scholars" know that the mass gassings tales are rapidly becoming insupportable
and they are consequently moving to other defensive positions.
I foresee the continuing downward revision of the holocaust numbers until they
eventually (soon too ) reach the proportions that the revisionists of
organizations like the Institute for Historical Review claim, i.e. a rough
overall figure of around 600,000 or so. Once that figure has been ultimately
accepted by all and the myths of "mass gassings" etc. are finally laid to
rest, the grand edifice known as the "holocaust" becomes a burst bubble.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 412 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:35 EST
I notice a back-and-forth here on the issue of "which historians?" to be
quoted or not quoted, which are "acceptable" or NOT "acceptable".
I can simplify this for those who are confused. It is really quite simple.
Let's say you have historians or famous writers who are internationally
respected and widely quoted from. They let's say these historians/authors
begin to question the holocaust or begin to question the origins of WWII etc.
The examples of David Irving and John Toland spring to mind here. Immediately
that these men challenge the establishment dogmas and break these historical
taboos, they are immediately branded "anti-semites" and "sanitizers of Nazism"
etc. in groundless defamatory fashion.
Having thus been "exposed" as "anti-semites" etc. for having broken the
taboos, they have become "unreliable", "biased", and no longer to be quoted
from, respected, or honored.
On the other hand, historians/authors who support each and every holocaust
claim are lauded and honored galore. They get the best university positions.
They get their books published and distributed with the greatest of ease. And
they assume the most respectable positions within the establishment historical
realm of what Harry Elmer Barnes called the "court historians".
What is witnessed here is what we could call intellectual terrorism at play,
and every historian knows it. If he dares to question the holocaust, his
career is OVER. If he DOES openly and honestly question it, he has everything
to lose. Which makes the positions taken by Irving and Toland vis-a-vis
historical and holocaust revisionism all the more interesting and convincing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 413 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:41 EST
To POOH.BAH,
All the photographs are "real"? You must know yourself that a great number of
the photographs used as holocaust "evidence" were in fact doctored or altered.
Udo Walendy's writings and various monographs published by the IHR deal with
individual photos and their use/abuse relating to the holocaust. Some or many
photos, perhaps even MOST photos WERE real, but in and of themselves they
don't mean much.
A photo of a pile of bodies shoes only a pile of bodies, usually a few dozen
or a few hundred. They don't show if the bods were Jewish or whatever. They
don't show if they were gassed or not. They also don't show or "prove" WHERE
or HOW they died.
Similarly, I remember the photos of the "gas chambers" taken at Dachau. Later
it turned out that they were in fact photos of delousing chambers or of
crematoria facilities there, which every camp had. I also remember some of
the photos of "gassed Jews" which later turned out to have been taken at
Dresden in 1945 and which in fact showed the burning pyres of the air-raid
victims of what was probably the greatest single war crime of WWII (and
perpetrated by US, the "good guys").
Photos are interesting, and even if they sometimes ARE accurate, undoctored,
and verifiable, they don't mean a whole lot.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 414 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:45 EST
To POOH.BAH,
I find your comments about "The Raven" not speaking German quite interesting.
If he doesn't speak German, then this "proves" that he is "not fit" to discuss
the holocaust or it's "documentation". Naturally, this proviso is not applied
to anybody else, but ONLY to those that question aspects of the holocaust. On
the other hand, if he DID speak German, then this would no doubt "prove" that
he was "pro-Nazi", "anti-semitic", "biased" etc. in the same kind of
irrational vein.
I used to be fluent in that language (German), and still try to keep it up by
reading novels (zum Beispiel Fallada, Boll, und so weiter) and so what would
THAT prove? Here your "logic" would get turned upside down in the typical
holocaustspeak manner.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 415 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:51 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Your defamations and slanders heaped upon the directors/advisers/ Board
members of the Institute for Historical Review seem to run like this:
Professor "A", Dr. "B" etc. are linked to the IHR, which "proves" their "lack
of credibility", "bias", and "anti-semitism". Presto! No professional
historians or serious scholars are left to refute any aspect of the holocaust!
Imagine if the same kind of irrational and illogical approach was taken
towards those that support the holocaust myths: it would go like this:
Professor "POOH.BAH", Dr. "Holohoaxer" and all the others have openly stated
that a holocaust took place. This "proves" that they have no credibility,
that they are "biased", that they are "Semitic haters" etc. etc. It would be
just as rediculous.
You can't keep demanding to see historians representing the revisionist
position, and then when a number of them are presented to you, just simply
reject them because they represent that revisionist position are are therefore
"not credible". It's rediculous in the extreme.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 416 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:55 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Your quotes from Bradley Smith's work are accurate. You are also correct when
you say that he and his work are a part of the IHR's "media project". But
what exactly is "exposed" here? When or where did Smith or anybody from the
IHR try to hide this or deny it. The answer is: NEVER. Both the IHR and the
Institute have been very open about it, and I don't see anything wrong with
that.
CODOH, however, is a separate organization from the IHR although it is quite
true and also quite natural and even obviously natural that they would be
linked or that they would sometimes work together.
Again, to use your logic, imagine if: Hey! Guess what! We have DISCOVERED
that the Anti-Defamation League and the Jewish Defense League and the America-
Israel Public Affairs Committee are LINKED! Wow!!!! What an "exposure"!
Members belonging to all three at once! You see what I mean?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 417 Fri Mar 20, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 05:13 EST
Nice to see you reveal your true colors, M.Rungu. Apparently, those two
zionist Jews, Lenin and Stalin, were no doubt great champions of the
international conspiracy of Capitalistic money-grubbing Communist Jews, eh? I
have my doubts.
Especially since you have claimed to have no knowledge of revulsionist
history, and expressed a desire for "fair and open" debate by attacking POOH-
BAH's personality and slandering the Jews as being nothing more than a total
bunch of Communists.
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 418 Fri Mar 20, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 05:17 EST
Rungu:
For someone who came aboard as someone claiming not to know very much (a claim
I still accept at face value) and just wanting to get some honest discourse,
you sure carry a lot of prejudicial baggage.
SPEAKER:
I have but one problem with your posts. They make me want to cry.
Dave Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 419 Fri Mar 20, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 05:20 EST
Dave,
I believe that's he's ignorant about the Holocaust, too. Unfortunate that it's
an invincible ignorance, eh?
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 420 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:26 EST
To P.NANSON,
Ah yes, of course. "GENIE is allowing a holocaust discussion!" How terrible!
This PROVES that GENIE is a hotbed of Nazi haters, and that the Sysops are
mass gassers of Jews...
Anybody that questions the holocaust must be burned at the stake, right? All
revisionist books and materials and studies must be heaped up and incinerated,
right? And all, of course, in the name of "tolerance", "freedom", and "love".
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 421 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:30 EST
To TERMY (Raper)
When or where did I claim that I received the Butz book from Mr. Raven, on a
Sunday, and became an "instant expert". This is distortion in true
holocaustspeak fashion.
I believe that I said that I "recently received" the book and that I had not
read all of it yet, or something to that effect. By the way, I bought it from
the IHR, nobody else.
The point is, I am willing to hear and read the revisionist side IN ADDITION
TO the "exterminationist" side. I am willing to read Raul Hilberg and am
trying to find his trilogy to see what he has to say (at an affordable price
though!). At the same time, I want to read Butz and see what HE has to say
from the other side. Are YOU willing to see/hear both sides? My guess is:
NO.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 422 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:34 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14,
I can't resist a response to your message 387/TOP TEN ---
So here we are on the Holohoax Moonbase of New Tel Aviv, and the top ten
holohoaxspeak stories are being frothed forth (accompanied of course, by
wailing, knashing of teeth, beating of breasts, moaning/groaning......)
1. Holohoaxman "A" was gassed FIFTY times, then eaten by
an Alsatian wearing an armband! But he SURVIVED... 2. Holohoaxwoman "B"
was driven over by a Nazi tank, then
cremated, then her ashes made into a lampshade and a purse.
But she SURVIVED... .............................................and the
holohoax takes and mythologies go on and on - and NOBODY is allowed to
question ANY of them!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 423 Fri Mar 20, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 05:36 EST
I think M.Rungu has just about said it all.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 424 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:47 EST
I would like to quote from a very fascinating article I read recently by Dr.
Howard F. Stein (Jewish), "The Holocaust, and the Myth of the Past as History"
(from the Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 1, No. 4 - Winter 1980):
"My point of departure is the smple observation that between 1933 and 1945
some awesomely terrible things took place in Europe - TO EVERYONE. It is
however, another matter to view the entire sordid era through the eyes of a
single group - the Jews - and to accept this interpretation as the only valid
one...
"Why, for Jews, the holocaust? What, in sanctifying the holocaust, do Jews
NOT want to know about that grim era? Whatever be the "facts" of the
holocaust, it is experienced as a NECESSITY, as part of a recurrent historic
pattern. Reality must be made to conform to fantasy...
"I would go so far as to say that one who comprehends the Jewish meaning of
"Holocaust" (and I encompass some five thousand years here) has understood the
Jewish experience of LIFE: fear of punishment, inevitability of punishment,
expectation of punishment, and finally, unconscious conviction that punishment
is deserved. Of course, all this is massively defended against...and by
distorting the reality of history so that it conforms with the myth of
history...
"It is precisely at this point that the holocaust as sacred symbol collides
with a scientific approach to the Holocaust as a fact to be analyzed. The
magic of "numbers" has long played an almost hypnotic role in any discussion
of the 1933-1945 period. To most Jews, and to many non-Jews, the Holocaust is
defined exclusively in terms of the "six million" Jews who perished. Little
mention is made of non-Jewish Slavic peoples, or non-Axis peoples of Western
Europe who perished. ...
"The core of Revisionism must be the RE-HUMANIZATION of all participants,
whatever their role, in the Second World War. The consequence, I believe, will
be a discovery of a systemic irrationality in which Germany cannot be singled
out for blame..."
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 425 Fri Mar 20, 1992
E.STEWART8 at 05:52 EST
M.RUNGU,
I don't see anyone here making a martyr out of you. So, why not stop throwing
tantrums and state your case. Or, am I to gather that these tantrums you are
casting about is the essence of your case?
Ed
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 426 Fri Mar 20, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 06:09 EST
You've got it, Ed.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 427 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 06:51 EST
379 Carl: Excellent point.
The racists who refer to themselves euphemistically as "Holocaust
Revisionists" attempt to use the fact that most people don't know every
exact detail of Hitler's extermination plan, and that some people mention
one method, such as gassing, while others mention another method used, such
as the Eizengruppen (sp?), to try to gravenly convince the naive that the
Holocaust never occurred.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 428 Fri Mar 20, 1992
R.ARBETMAN at 07:38 EST
408 Rungu:
I suggest that you read Raven's message 33 where he says "... he
(Adolf Hitler) was a great man ...".
Holocaust denial is an element in the propaganda of neo-Nazi
organizations.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 429 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:54 EST
384 Raven:
> So you are saying that when buried bodies decompose, they make the
> ground heave and tremble? I guess I WILL have to consult a physiology
> text!
To help you in your research may I recommend that you study the difference
between aerobic and anaerobic bacteria? Then you might wish to research why
everyone is required to be buried in metal lined caskets and, when you are
done with that, figure out what would happen when 33,771 corpses decompose in
a single mass grave. After all, according to the Einsatzgruppen Reports,
that's how many were buried at Babi Yar from September 29-30.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 430 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:55 EST
384 Raven:
> As for the Wiesel quote, you will find it in Paroles d'etranger,
> Editions du Seuil, page 86.
Thank you for citing your source. You have just disclosed that you are taking
the quote from Faurisson - the one who was removed from his professorship in
classical literature at Lyons 2.
Let's put your quote into context, shall we? I will use the correct American
source: _The Jews of Silence: A Personal Report on Soviet Jewry_. As you will
notice from the title, the Holocaust is not the subject for the book - Soviet
Jewry and the Refuseniks.
In this book, Wiesel has an entire chapter entitled "Babi Yar." He begins with
a little history of Kiev, including Bogdan Chmielnitzki, the Cossack chieftain
who, in 1648, led an insurrection against the Polish and Ukrainian gentry that
resulted in the massacre of numerous Jewish communities. At the end of the
first page of that chapter, Wiesel says:
"All you need is a bit of imagination, and, breaking through the surface, you
can identify Babi Yar with the figure of Bogdan Chmielnitzki, the man who
prefigured it, who prepared the way, the man who made Babi Yar possible."
Two paragraphs later, Wiesel writes:
"As a warrior who hoped to lead his people to independence by the sword,
Chmielnitzki failed. But as a murderer of Jews he was successful. The story of
Babi Yar will be recorded as his greatest victory."
Now, do you maintain that Wiesel believes that Chmielnitzki was present or
ordered Babi Yar? Or, do you understand him to be speaking allegorically?
Now comes the quote in question:
"How many Jews were killed at Babi Yar? Exact estimates are hard to come by.
Some say seventy thousand, others a hundred and fifty thousand. Unlike those
in Auschwitz, the Germans and their local collaborators here did not bother
with statistics - perhaps because Ukrainians have no head for figures.
"Eyewitnesses say that for months after the killings the ground continued to
spurt geysers of blood. One was always treading on corpses. Only recently
someone dug up a new mass grave, and it is generally held that this was not
the last. So it is impossible to rely on figures; the dead themselves ensure
the need for occasional revisions of former estimates.
"Non-Jews in Kiev do not like to talk about Babi Yar. Even the quasi-official
spokesmen of the Jewish community prefer to pass over it in silence rather
than admit the simple, cruel, incriminating fact that the general populace of
Kiev, including faithful members of the Communist Party, did not lift a finger
to prevent the mass murders."
Now, to claim that Wiesel is "saying" that geysers of blood DID spurt from the
ground, you have to be consistent and say that Wiesel is saying that 70,000
were killed there, that 150,000 were killed there, that "one was always
treading on corpses," etc.
No, Raven, it is clear that Wiesel is NOT asserting any of the above as being
true any more than he is saying that Chmielnitzki participated in or ordered
Babi Yar.
Perhaps you shouldn't depend upon a French ex-con as a source, huh?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 431 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:55 EST
384 Raven:
> You will probably say that Wiesel is quoting someone else. I gotta
> tell you, though, when I was a kid, my dad told me it was okay to
> steal from big corporations, one of my friends told me that if you
> fell out of an airplane you would die before you hit the ground, and
> my teachers told me that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was
> unprovoked. Not a one of these statement is correct, which is why I
> don't go around repeating them ... even as quotes from someone else.
Really? You just did.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 432 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:56 EST
384 Raven:
> If the Germans claimed they had 11 million Jews, they are alone in
> their demographics.
No, they are NOT alone in their demographics. It all depends upon how one
defines "Jew." Even the Nazis admitted that right after they ennumerated, by
country, how many Jews were under their control.
> I will be pleased to talk about crematoria when we get to that point.
> And I will gladly document my sources. In fact, I called a funeral
> home just a few days ago, and was told that the FIRST STAGE of the
> cremation process takes 2 to 3 hours, depending on the body. Because
> the German crematoria were no better than modern crematoria, there is
> no way they could handle 10,000 corpses in 24 hours. This is
> ridiculous on the face of it, and is counter to the claims of some of
> the so-called eyewitnesses at Auschwitz.
So now you are taking eyewitnesses reports (which you have previously
discredited) over the official Nazi report?
It will be interested when we get to the discussion of crematoria. After all,
from the above I can tell that you are depending upon all the usual false
assumptions of the Deniers. Ho hum....
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 433 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:56 EST
389 Rungu:
> Looking at your very selective Einsatzgruppen readings and then reading
> Mr. Raven's selections in rebuttal to yours . . .
^^^^^^^^^^ Excuse me, but for the above to be accurate, Greg
would have had to quote more than one report. He didn't. He quoted from Report
27 only.
> You seem to have selected only those reports that support your position.
Now this statement is really funny! However, assuming that you were not trying
to be humorous, let me explain (again). Greg claims that no Jews were killed
by the Einsatzgruppen without just cause as a security risk. I claim that
there were Jews killed for no other reason than the fact they belonged to the
"Jewish race." For me to be right, all that is needed is a single example
where Jews were killed for "belonging to the Jewish race" (and if you check
Report #173, you will see just that). However, a single example proving me
right also proves Greg wrong.
> The "pogroms" you mentioned were acts of revenge towards Jews, and in no
> way can be attributed to the German authorities.
Run, you have just stepped into the same pile that Rave did (as elucidated
above). To prove you are wrong, I only have to find a single example where the
pogroms CAN be attributed to the Nazis. Let's see if I can do
that.......................OH!
Here it is, in Einsatzgruppen Report #10, 7/2/41:
"It is obvious that the cleansing activities have to extend first of all to
the Bolsheviks and the Jews [not that here "Bolshevik" and "Jew" are not
synonyms!]. As for the Polish intelligentsia and others, decisions can be
taken later, unless there is a special reason for taking action in individual
cases considered to be dangerous.
"It is therefore obvious that such Poles need not be included in the cleansing
action, especially as they are of great importance as elements to incite
pogroms. (This depends, of course, on local conditions.)"
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 434 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:57 EST
395 Rungu:
> These election results brought about the negotiations that gave Hitler the
> Chancellorship.
> To deny that Hitler was democratically elected is sheer nonsense . . .
Excuse me but "negotiations" and "democratically elected" are not one and the
same. Therefore, YOU have just denied that Hitler was democratically elected.
> The July 31st 1932 elections brought the NSDAP no less than 230 seats out
> of 608. That 230 represented the NSDAP as by far the biggest party in
> Germany, the party with the most popular support, far more support, in
> fact, than any other party.
As, I believe, even you can see from the above, 230 is not 51% of 608...and as
you pointed out, the number of seats for the Nazis DECLINED in November.
Democratic governments are not formed by who has the biggest but by who has
the MAJORITY (as in over 50%). Hitler never did.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 435 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:58 EST
401 Rungu:
Let me see if I can explain this to you in terms that you will understand.
Yes, many Communists (an atheistic ideology) were of Jewish descent. However,
from that one may not logically conclude that many Jews were Communists. In
fact, the large majority of Jews were NOT Communists.
So your conclusion that the first statement (i.e. many Communists were Jews)
translates into therefore all Jews are a security risk is illogical.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 436 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 11:00 EST
I present for your consideration:
Rungu says in 391:
> I would like to redefine your "intentionalists" and "functionalists"
> holocaustspeak terminology. The "intention" of holocaust propaganda is to
> create a gigantic and fraudulent guilt complex amongst the peoples of the
> West, to the immense financial benefit of Jews worldwide and to the
> financial, political and diplomatic benefit of the Israeli state in
> particular. The "functionalists" are those professional functionaries (or
> professional "survivors") who carry out the tasks of creating the
> myth/legends and intensifying the guilt inculcation, such as Elie the
> Wiesel et al.
Rungu says in 400:
> I don't see how the desire for a free and open discussion of the holocaust
> is equivalent to "anti-semitism". That is your emotionalized
> interpretation, and based upon nothing whatsoever.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 437 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 11:01 EST
412 Rungu:
> The examples of David Irving and John Toland spring to mind here.
Irving is not a historian but a writer of popular history. The two
designations are not synonmous. Toland, OTOH, doesn't even know German and
even Irving speaks disparagingly of him.
> no longer to be quoted from, respected, or honored.
You can't lose something you never had.
> What is witnessed here is what we could call intellectual terrorism at
> play, and every historian knows it. If he dares to question the
> holocaust, his career is OVER. If he DOES openly and honestly question
> it, he has everything to lose. Which makes the positions taken by Irving
> and Toland vis-a-vis historical and holocaust revisionism all the more
> interesting and convincing.
Irving and Toland have never lost positions, careers, etc. for their
positions. They didn't have any to lose.
What is most interesting, though, is that here, again, we have someone
claiming (falsely) that there is no debate, that historians are not allowed to
questions aspects of the Holocaust, etc. Yet, when the evidence has been
presented that this IS false, the same people claim that that is proof that
the Holocaust didn't occur. Ho hum.....can we change the record? This refrain
has gotten boring.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 438 Fri Mar 20, 1992
POOH.BAH at 11:01 EST
415 Rungu:
> Your defamations and slanders heaped upon the directors/advisers/ Board
> members of the Institute for Historical Review seem to run like this:
As has been pointed out by others (as well as myself), I posted quotes and
matters of the public record. I did not state my conclusions or even suggest
what others should conclude from the quotes or facts. Therefore, your charge
that I have practiced defamation and slander is unfounded. However, the same
cannot be said for either you or Greg. Greg has called Elie Wiesel a
"professional liar" and has not retrated that statement. You have called the
nobel laureate "Elie the Wiesel" which is, once again, playing games with
someone's name....which you specifically chided someone else for when it was
YOUR name that was in question. Ho hum....
> Professor "A", Dr. "B" etc. are linked to the IHR, which "proves" their
> "lack of credibility", "bias", and "anti-semitism".
You said it, not me.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 439 Fri Mar 20, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 11:53 EST
For a while we had, ==The Germans didn't do it, and anyway, everybody else did
it, too.== It's actually a little slicker than that, because they say, ==the
Germans didn't commit the atrocity of trying to exterminate an entire people,
an effort that had nothing to do with the war effort (a war in which the
Germans were aggressors); they only committed normal war atrocities like
everybody else.=
Then we had, =the Germans didn't do it, and anyway, why do you just mourn the
Jews when they did it to so many other people?= (Something which everybody
acknowledges and mourns.)
And every so often, we have =They didn't do it, and anyway, the Jews deserved
it because they were communists= (An especially ironic and nasty tactic
considering how much Jews have suffered at the hands of communism.)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 440 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:09 EST
384 GRaven:
>You will probably say that Wiesel is quoting someone else. I gotta
tell you, though, when I was a kid, my dad told me it was okay to
steal from big corporations, one of my friends told me that if you
fell out of an airplane you would die before you hit the ground, and
my teachers told me that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was
unprovoked.
Is that how you learned your utter disdain for the truth?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 441 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:10 EST
385 GRaven:
>I will be pleased to talk about crematoria when we get to that point.
What a pleasant thought. But, aren't you trying to convince people there
weren't any? How can you talk about something that wasn't?
Ah, I think I've got it! You know they existed; you're just trying to
convince others they didn't.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 442 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:10 EST
386 CRaven:
> I am sorry that my schedule does not meet with your approval.
I do wish you'd stop apologizing.
>I have but limited time and limited resources for pursuing this
discussion.
Glad to hear it.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 443 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:10 EST
389 M.Rungu:
>The peoples of the Baltic republics ... clearly remembered the holocaust
perpetrated upon themselves by the Soviet commissars and by the NKVD, and
how the leaders and organizers of these massacres were in fact Jews.
For one who is so interested in denying the Holocaust, you're very
imaginative to come up with a holohoax, and then blame it on people, like
my grandparents, who were fleeing pogroms.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 444 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:11 EST
391 Rungu:
>I would like to redefine your "intentionalists" and "functionalists"
holocaustspeak terminology.
You've been pretty good at rewriting history; why stop there?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 445 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:11 EST
392 Rungu:
>We are not a "motley crew" attempting to "rewrite history".
Sorry, it's Purim. I guess your disguise fooled me. I'll award you first
prize in the contest for the most deceptive Purim costume.
>What I and others who have a serious interest in this historical period
known as the holocaust are trying to do, is to help to bring history into
accord with the facts;
Congratulations; your deception has fooled me again. I look forward to
your getting serious, and ceasing this nonsensical denial.
>Much of history AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN in recent years is false...
Certainly, the version that you and Craven are trying to fool people with
is.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 446 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:11 EST
394 Rungu:
>Mr. Fink, I will say again that there is a great deal that I do not know
about the holocaust, ...
That's quite clear.
>but I am learning.
That's not.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 447 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:12 EST
Rungu:
>Your comments about the 1933 elections which brought Hitler the
Chancellorship are misleading, false, ...
You're the expert in that area (misleading, false, ...).
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 448 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:12 EST
397 Rungu:
>Why merely retain all these people in all these camps for years and years
when they could have been quickly liquidated?
Would that have been your recommendation?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 449 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:12 EST
399 Rungu:
>The free and open discussion of the holocaust often necessitates the
reminding of various would-be speech suppressors that our Constitution does
indeed provide certain speech guarantees and safeguards. I know that this
is extremely frustrating to those who want topics like this suppressed and
silenced if they don't fit into convenient dogmatic confines, but our
Constitution is a reality.
Your lack of understanding of the free speech guarantees of the
Constitution, which do not apply to commercial activities such as GEnie, is
matched only by your lack of understanding of the Holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 450 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:12 EST
405 Rungu:
>Just message after puerile and emotionalized messages, screenful after
screenful drowning out the SERIOUS discussion that would otherwise be
appearing on the monitor screens.
You seem to be describing your own messages here.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 451 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:13 EST
407 Rungu:
>Gee, thanks a lot for the hyper-emotional tale or poem or whatever it was.
What is it supposed to prove, though?
Even nothing is more than what you and CRaven have proven.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 452 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:13 EST
408 Rungu:
>I have to deny ...
You seem to do a lot of that.
>Those are mere defamatory tactics intended to place the credibility of
"revisionists" in doubt ...
It doesn't take much to place the credibility of the Holocaust deniers in
doubt.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 453 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:14 EST
411 Rungu:
>I foresee the continuing downward revision of the holocaust numbers until
they eventually (soon too ) reach the proportions that the revisionists of
organizations like the Institute for Historical Review claim, i.e. a rough
overall figure of around 600,000 or so.
A mere pittance.
>Once that figure has been ultimately accepted by all and the myths of
"mass gassings" etc. are finally laid to rest, the grand edifice known as
the "holocaust" becomes a burst bubble.
An you Holocaust deniers look forward to smiling all the way to the
mortuary. How pleasant.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 454 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:14 EST
419 scaramouche:
>I believe that's he's ignorant about the Holocaust, too. Unfortunate that
it's an invincible ignorance, eh?
It would be excusable, although pitiable, if CRaven and Rungu were throwing
around all their lies out of ignorance, but I'm quite sure they know more
about the gory details of the Holocaust, and revel in them, than most of
us.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 455 Fri Mar 20, 1992
SPEAKER at 19:02 EST
I sift through the ashes and what do I find? The lives and dreams and hopes of
those who have died. The survivors have given voice to their strife - they've
borne witness to days of torturous life. Some of the perpetrators have told of
their crime - orders were followed without reason or rhyme. Yet, through it
all we have lost stories galore of those who perished in the madness of the
storm. Here, then, I step up to speak of lives so precious and deaths so
bleak. Listen if you dare to the tales I tell: I speak of what I know and that
I know well.
Eva Pickova entered the inferno at the age of 10. She navigated bravely
without a friend. Where was Virgil who had helped before? Where was Dante who
knew the score? Without their presence she wandered bereft of help. Yet
without their advice, she, too, recorded her trip.
-----------------------------
Fear
Today the ghetto knows a different fear,
Close in its grip, Death wields an icy scythe.
An evil sickness spread a terror in its wake,
The victims of its shadow weep and writhe.
Today a father's heartbeat tells his fright
And mothers bend their heads into their hands.
Now children choke and die with typhus here,
A bitter tax is taken from their bands.
My heart still beats inside my breast
While friends depart for other worlds.
Perhaps it's better - who can say? -
Than watching this, to die today?
No, no, my G*d, we want to live!
Not watch our numbers melt away.
We want to have a better world,
We want to work - we must not die!
____________________________
So was the cry of Eva who hailed from Nymburk. The date of her birth? May 15,
1929. Her deportation to Theresienstadt went as planned. She arrived in that
hell on April 16, 1942. Twenty-nine days later she turned the ripe age of 11.
A year after that, she penned the words above. "We must not die!" but die she
did - with Hanus Hachenburg on December 18, 1943. Auschwitz that day stole
more than youth - it took from all of us their unwritten work.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 456 Fri Mar 20, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 19:40 EST
Maurice Rungu:
I earlier forgot to address your citation of John Toland. Let me tell you a
secret, historian to historian, since you're obviously so educated. Toland is
primarily a pop historian of Japan (whose work I, as an Asian Studies major
specializing in Japanese language and history, have seen here and there).
He's a lousy source to quote. His work, while certainly entertaining (and,
like Reader's Digest, good bathroom reading) must be taken with a grain of
salt. He's no pro historian, and anyone who cites him not even as an
authority on Japan (which is dubious enough), but on the HOLOCAUST deserves to
be taken with a grain of low-sodium salt substitute.
DT Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 457 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:54 EST
430 Pooh.Bah:
>Perhaps you shouldn't depend upon a French ex-con as a source, huh?
But then GRaven would have nothing to base his distortions on.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 458 Fri Mar 20, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:55 EST
435 Pooh.Bah:
>So your [Rungu's] conclusion that the first statement (i.e. many
Communists were Jews) translates into therefore all Jews are a security
risk is illogical.
Obviously, logic isn't one of Rungu's strong suits.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 459 Fri Mar 20, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 21:24 EST
>> So you are saying that when buried bodies decompose, they make
>>the ground heave and tremble? I guess I WILL have to consult a
>>physiology text!
You're better off with a medical book on autopsies, Raven. Physiology really
only applies to living organisms.
A Biologist
Public Forum NonProfit Conn. R
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 389 Fri Mar 20, 1992
M.RUNGU at 02:32 EST
To POOH.BAH
>>Looking at your very selective Einsatzgruppen readings and then
>>reading Mr. Raven's selections in rebuttal to yours, it becomes
>>clear that you are not seriously interested in ascertaining the
>>historical facts on the holocaust. You seem to have selected only
>>those reports that support your position.
>>Concerning your comments about Lithuania and how "spontaneous
>>pogroms occurred in all the towns", I think you are right. The
>>peoples of the Baltic republics (as well as in the Ukraine and
>>EVERYWHERE in the East that the Germans swept out the Soviets)
>>clearly remembered the holocaust perpetrated upon themselves by
>>the Soviet commissars and by the NKVD, and how the leaders and
>>organizers of these massacres were in fact Jews. The "pogroms"
>>you mentioned were acts of revenge towards Jews, and in no way can
>>be attributed to the German authorities.
Very interesting. Your first paragraph both detracts from you veracity (you
said that you were not knowledgeable about these matters, but now you can tell
that Pooh's readings are "selective") and describes Mr. Raven's tactics, but
attributes them to POOH.BAH.
Your second paragraph is simply untrue - while there were Jews in the
Russian Communist movement (Trotsky being the best known example) to simply
classify ALL the "leaders and organizers" as Jewish is just not correct. I
doubt that ignorance is the explanation.
Why do you put "pogroms" in quotation marks? It is the correct word.
Notice the odd phrasing of this paragraph. "The peoples of the Baltic
republics...remembered the >holocaust< perpetrated upon themselves..."
[Emphasis mine] This holocaust you accept? In any case, that word already
has another meaning.
Also, "...the Ukraine and EVERYWHERE in the East that the Germans swept out
the Soviets..." Notice that this sounds approving - we speak of "sweeping
out" in a positive way.
RUNGU, do you really want to claim that the Revisionists (Deniers) are
"scholarly and serious"? Have you read Pooh's posts? They even explicitly
DENY being "scholarly".
DOGMA? If it's dogma, how can there be an active debate among the
Functionalists and the Intentionalists? It's generally accepted, not because
it's dogma, but because the evidence is overwhelming - because it's TRUE.
By the way, your 395, despite its pretence of arguing with me, actually
agrees completely with what I said. I said that the Nazis won a "large
minority" of the parliament - you say 288 of 608 members. That's a large
minority, RUNGU. In addition, you fail to deal with the fact that the Nazis
had to use polling-place intimidation to get that many seats. Do you want to
deny that Hindenburg was correct when he called Hitler "too radical"?
>>Gee, thanks a lot for the hyper-emotional tale or poem or whatever
>>it was. What is it supposed to prove, though? That somebody can
>>write a poem or that somebody has a lively imagination?
This is "serious and scholarly"?
>> each "survivor" and "eyewitness" beating his/her chest, grinding
>>his/her teeth, and moaning and wailing. Yet today not only do I
>>not see any historians accepting those kinds of "stories", but
>>they don't even make reference to them anymore, not even to DENY
>>them.
>>These unreal stories are utterly unreliable and have been
>>pronounced so even by the so-called "holocaust museums" around the
>>world. You can choose to believe them if you wish, but understand
>>clearly that they are of a fictional, and not factual or
>>historical, nature.
Are you serious? If so, give some sort of source for historians not using
the stories of survivors, and for holocaust museums doing the same. By the
way, what does it mean to put "holocaust museum" in quotes? What do you think
it REALLY is?
I won't dwell on the ridiculously insulting and dismissive tone - I think
people can see it for themselves.
By the way, David Irving has examined the evidence and now accepts the
evidence for the existence of the Holocaust. He's no longer in you camp,
RUNGU.
RUNGU, your 424 - Dr. Stein isn't saying, as you imply, that the Holocaust
didn't happen. He's saying that it wasn't a unique historical event (that
there have been other genocides) and that it didn't happen to Jews only (lots
of Slavs, Gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped people, and political dissidents
also died).
Carl
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 460 Fri Mar 20, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 21:48 EST
Wow.
Rungu gives new and vital meaning to the term "circular argument." The
tortuous leaps of illogic might be entertaining if the intent wasn't so
sickening.
So (for example) Pooh-Bah is being mean and nasty and only quoting
documents and incidents that support her position? Considering that nearly
all credible documents and incidents DO support her position, that isn't
terribly surprising... at least, not to most of us. But what had you
expected, Rungu? That she was going to argue both sides? Raven started
this topic, ably assisted by yourself. Why don't YOU guys start citing
evidence directly contradicting your position? I promise you that you
won't find it too terribly difficult. Honest.
That's only one tiny piece in a long litany of weird and contradictory
suppositions on Rungu's part. Other than the fact, of course, that Rungu
was merely a moderate fence-sitter a week ago, merely defending Raven's
right to be heard, and is now a devoted Denier. Pretty quick switch in
just a week, wouldn't you say? Can you say "Bag Job?" Sure you can. I
knew you could.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan <* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 461 Fri Mar 20, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 22:13 EST
I logged on this evening (Fri, 20th) after 3 days abscence; 176 New
messages! Certainly a lot to catch up with! If nothing else, the main
contributors to this topic; POOH.BAH, Raven, and Rungu are persistent and
prolific in their arguments/counterarguments. I note that Raven took time to
reply to one of my posts:
.
>To John Stengel (regarding 232) ----- Your statements that written orders
>were somehow not needed in Nazi Germany is contrary to the fact that
there
>are mounds of documents from this period. In fact, the Germans seemed
>quite happy to document everything.
.
Well, I guess that POOH.BAH might AGREE with you on ONE part of that (i.e.
"..The Germans seemed quite happy to document everything). POOH.BAH is
arguing from documents which apparantly do exist; "documents" are the basis of
POOH.BAH's argument and have been extensively cited. POOH.BAH (uptopic) points
out that documents are the pieces of a "jig-saw puzzle", which when pieced
together, show the entire picture. To my way of thinking howerver, official
documents tend to ofuscate rather than illuminate. "Documents" are produced
by bureaucrats...bureaucrats have a tendency to skew documentation. A well
written document will say what the subordinate thinks his (bureacratic)
superiors wants it to say (or just as importantly, not to say). If anything,
this tendency is even more pronounced in a totalitarian state. Does anyone
commit the "truth" to paper in a totalitarian terror state? There are
probably mountains of documents right now in various (defunct) Soviet
ministries which "prove" that Soviet agriculture was producing vast surpluses
of grain, or millions of automobiles, or refrigerators or whatever. Somehow,
these vast mounds of "documented" consumer goods failed to ever appear in
Moscow shops.
.
POOH.BAH has maintained a "scholarly aloofness" throughout this
discussion and has avoided emotional outbursts for the most part. Raven has
repeatedly asked for "documents"; POOH.BAH has repeatedly obliged. I get the
general impression that both POOH.BAH and Raven have a high regard for
"documentary" evidence. Sorry folks, I can't seem to put pieces of paper on
such a high pedestal on this kind of subject. Memoirs, diaries, personal
letters, eyewitness accounts etc. usually shed a lot more light on historical
events than do "official documents". When was the last time you heard of a
prosecuter getting a murder conviction on the basis of a "document" (other
than a signed confession)? Actually, in such cases, eye-witness accounts
(under cross examination) carry a lot more weight. Eye witness accounts can
also be corroberated by other physical evidence. There are PLENTY of
eyewitness accounts to the holocaust events. Raven says he can discredit some
of these eyewitnesses; congratulations Raven! With thousands and thousands of
such eyewitnesses would it not be a surprise if you could'nt discredit a few?
But for every witness you can discredit, the prosecution can bring out 10
more whom you can't discredit. For the one witness who is confused (or whose
mind has been so warped by what they went through) and whose testimony cannot
be corroborated; the prosecution will produce ten whose minds are clear and
whose testimony can be corroberated.
.
"It is written, it is true" might suffice in winning religious
arguments...the "truth" of the twentieth century is all around us. Just open
your eyes and ears and its staring you in the face. Given the late nineteenth
century general breakdown of the the old moral bariers that restrained us
(Western Civilization) for hundreds of years; add "traditional" European anti-
semitism, and the truth of the holocaust becomes a sure bet. What the hell
is the history of this century other than an orgy of mass killing? At this
very moment, there are men sitting in missile silos on both sides of the big
pond; men perfectly willing to press a button that will launch a weapon that
will incinerate MEGA-MILLIONS of people 15 minutes later. And that's without
even waiting for a "written order", no documents left to "prove" the event to
future (if any) historians! Instant holocaust, crematoriums not needed. And
you doubt the holocaust happened? My God man, where have you been?
.
.
>To expand on my earlier point about the crematories, if each
>body took only one hour to be completely reduced to ash (which is
>unreasonably short), you would nee 11 million crematory hours to
>eliminate all the claimed victims. Crematories can only run 12 hours
out
>of 24, which means you need roughly 916,000 crematory days. Because all
>this alleged killing took place in roughly three years (let's say
four),
>you have only 1461 calendar days available. Dividing crematory days by
>calendar days, you find you need 626 crematories working at peak
>efficiency to do the job, which is ridiculous. Unfortunately for the
>exterminationists, this is a best-case scenario. Note also that this
>leaves unaddressed the question of gassing the victims first.
.
Come on Raven, can you seriously maintain that Nazi Germany, which
produced enough rifles, tanks, artillery pieces, submarines etc. to nearly
defeat the combined might of The United States, The Soviet Union, Great
Britain (and various other lesser powers), would have a problem producing 626
crematories? Also, setting as the standard of "crematory performance" the
performance of a modern funeral home facility is a bit invalid, would you not
agree? No funeral crematory is intended to handle more than a very few bodies.
I'm sure (technically) a crematory could be built to handle as many as
desired; I dare say that a crematory could be made to burn 100 bodies at a
time rather than one body...lets see then... instead of the 626 you cite as
needed to dispose of the massive numbers of corpses during the 4
years...hmmmm, move the decimal point two places to the left...yep, they
would need 6.26 creamtories. Lets round that off to 7. Gosh do you think
MAYBE they might even have had 14 (or perhaps even 21) "hundred at a time"
crematoria? With 21 crematoria, they would not even have to work (as you put
it) at "peak efficieny". The "impossibility" of cremating the millions is a
very weak argument (if its an argument at all).
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 462 Fri Mar 20, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 22:22 EST
True enough - the supposition that Nazi crematoria must function in
exactly the same fashion as those used by funeral homes in 1990s America
is a pretty silly one.
But that *is* an interesting point you touched on. Do you think that if
some crazy in Kazakhstan decides to nuke the human race tomorrow, the
G. Ravens of Delta Draconis some hundred thousand years hence will deny
that humans had any hand in their own mass destruction, and therefore God
must have decided to break the Covenant and do us all in himself?
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan <* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 463 Fri Mar 20, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 22:54 EST
-----> Note to POOH.BAH
Your analogy of the "jig-saw puzzle" in reference to documents pieced
together to form the "big picture"....When I think of "jig saw puzzle", I
usually picture one of those 2,000 piece monsters that most of us just
would'nt have the patience to piece together. I would'nt even attempt it if I
did'nt have the puzzle box cover in front of me so I could "peek" at the
completed picture now and then!
Actually, the holocaust "puzzle" is more aptly analogous to the 5 or 6
piece nursery school puzzles...you only need to see one or two pieces and you
pretty much have the whole picture! No need (IMHO) to to chop the puzzle
into thousands of little pieces in order to reassemble the "whole story". If
you're ambitious enough to tackle the 2,000 piece version, hats off to you! I
still say though, the simpler puzzle, when put together, forms a picture
identical to your more complex puzzle!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 464 Fri Mar 20, 1992
P.NANSON [eclectic] at 23:06 EST
Re: Message 406
M.RUNGU;
>The measures you described that were taken by the German security
>agencies against the German Communist Party (KPD) are factual, and
>nobody is trying to deny those measures. Personally, I don't have
>any problem with them because I frankly am not sympathetic to
>revolutionary communist organizations -
And yet you come here, to a private system, and try to wrap your garbage in
the First amendment.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: Message 420
M.RUNGU;
>Anybody that questions the holocaust must be burned at the stake,
>right? All revisionist books and materials and studies must be
>heaped up and incinerated, right? And all, of course, in the name
>of "tolerance", "freedom", and "love".
Do you hope to prove your point by putting words in my mouth? You are free,
under the Constitution, to stand on any street corner and spout your filth.
But, in case you haven't noticed, GEnie is a private system and has policy
guidelines barring bigotry and racism.
Anyway, as I understand it, it is the Nazis who are the book burners.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 465 Sat Mar 21, 1992
C.MAIER [Claire] at 00:34 EST
Let's see. Raven thinks that the arguments between the Intentionalists and
the Functionalists casts doubt about the veracity of the Holocaust. Well,
let's look at an analogy, shall we, to see the point Raven is making.
Let's say Raven goes to the store and buys a loaf of bread. An
Intentionalist would say he intended to buy the bread all along. A
Functionalist would say it was an impulse buy.
But Raven says, "Aha! They are disagreeing! That means that there is a
third possibility--that I didn't buy the loaf of bread at all! And he
maintains this, even though a receipt for the bread in question is found in
his possession.
Raven, maybe this example would suffice to show why we don't support your
"logic".
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 466 Sat Mar 21, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 02:09 EST
Really, Claire. The notion that a debate about the particulars of an
event or theory means that it is non-existant is mind-boggling - or
would be, if we didn't have about fifty posts from Raven to bewilder us
enough.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan <* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 467 Sat Mar 21, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 02:32 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
RAOUL WALLENBERG
The Swedish Diplomat for his Valiant efforts
at the risk of his own life
in saving the lives of 100,000 Hungarian Jews
from the same horrible fate of the millions
of Gentiles, Jews, Gay, Gypsies and mentally ill,
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of the Nazi Holocaust
The Master Race of NAZIs
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 468 Sat Mar 21, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 04:00 EST
Mordechai (yeah, right?) Rungu:
Cute, how you strongly imply that since you've no "sympathy for revolutionary
communist" organizations, you condone the slaughter of their members.
Friedman the Yid
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 469 Sat Mar 21, 1992
P.PAVLOVSKY at 13:42 EST
If I handle English as well as SPEAKER does, I would write a short
poem "Komu neni rady, tomu neni pomoci". With my limited style I
can help those who want to know a bit of history. Not from
textbooks, but from memories of my blessed family.
At the beginning of WWII my grandfather had three brothers. When
Nazi tanks rolled through their town, one brother made a mistake
and open the window to check out what is going on. A moment later
the tank blast killed him and demolished his house. That one is
counted only as a "civilian causality". Two other brothers were
picked by Nazis and shot in nearby woods. His wife had a heart
problem and depended on medications to live. Shortly after the war
begun the supply of medicine ended and she died.
The owner of a local drugstore was a Jew named Kwaswalter and his
daughter Rachel was the best friend of my mother. Sixteen years
old, they must work on a farm. One day Rachel told my mother that
she will not come to work tomorrow because she is going to run away
that night. Rachel lived in a ghetto, guarded by SS, where Nazis
were gathering Jews from other villages.
Early morning SS and Ukrainian collaborating police begun
transporting all people from ghetto to an abandoned limestone mine
where each and every one was shot.
My mother remembers how horrified she was when she was walking to
work and for every step she made there was one shot and one dead.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 470 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:23 EST
I have posted excerpts of various documents which support the fact that there
was an extermination plan. Some might think that these documents are the sole
evidence available. This is far from the case.
For instance, the first two documents I will quote here are from
correspondence regarding honors to be conferred upon members of the SS who
participated in the executions conducted by the Einsatzgruppen. This is a
clear indication that (1) the executions were to be kept secret, and, (2)
participation was considered worthy enough for honors.
Remember, all of the information that I've posted thus far deals solely with
the Einsatzgruppen program. This, as most of you know, was not the only method
of extermination. There are two other main classifications: privation and the
camps. The classification of "privation" includes those who were starved,
frozen or worked to death. The classification of "camps" likewise divides into
medical experimentation, executions and gassing.
Much of the technology for the gassings came out of the Nazi euthanasia
program. Therefore, even though I posted two documents which are from the
euthanasia program already, I will explain more about the euthanasia program
when I get to the information on the gassings.
This, then, should give you a general outline of what I will be covering.
Please let me know if you are getting "information overload" and I will let up
for a while.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 471 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:23 EST
RE: Conferment of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz.
RE: My telegram to you, no. 2719, of 19 Nov. 1941.
The Commandant's Office has submitted to date two lists recommending the
conferment of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz. In both of these appear SS personnel
who participated in executions. We herewith request confirmation as to
whether these names should be listed once again in the roll currently under
preparation. Further requested is information as to whether in the
recommendation lists under "Reasons and Comments of Immediate Superior" there
should be specified, "Execution, i.e., special action" or whether a general,
routine reason should be given.
The Camp Commandant
Signed, Roedl
SS Obersturmbannfuehrer
[Note in this document that "execution" and "special action" is synonymous.]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 472 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:24 EST
[Reply to the previous inquiry. Dated 20.November.1941]
In the lists of recommendation for the conferment of the KVK to SS members who
participated in the executions, under "reasons" enter: "completion of vital
war assignments." The word "execution" should under no circumstances be
mentioned. In the lists to be handed in, the names already submitted should be
cited once again.
Signed, Liebehenschel
SS Obersturmbannfuehrer
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 473 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:25 EST
Just in case there is anyone still wondering if there is a possibility that
the indigenous populations of the Baltics, Ukraine, etc. erupted into
"spontaneous pogroms" which the Nazis couldn't control (as has been claimed
here by others), I submit the following for consideration. This extract comes
from a report by Einsatzgruppe A in the Baltic countries. It is a general
report of their progress up to October 15, 1941.
----------------------------------------------
Basing oneself on the consideration that the population of the Baltic
countries had suffered most severely under the rule of Bolshevism and Jewry
while they were incorporated into the USSR, it was to be expected that after
liberation from this foreign rule they would themselves to a large extent
eliminate those of the enemy left behind after the retreat of the Red Army. It
was the task of the Security Police to set these self-cleansing movements
going and to direct them into the right channels in order to achieve the aim
of this cleansing as rapidly as possible. I was no less important to establish
as unshakable and provable facts for the future that it was the liberated
population itself which took the most severe measures, on its own initiative,
against he Bolshevik and Jewish enemy, without any German instruction being
evident.
In Lithuania this was achieved for the first time by activating the partisans
in Kovno. To our surprise it was not easy at first to set any large-scale anti-
Jewish pogrom in motion there...In Estonia there was no opportunity of
instigating pogroms owing to the relatively small number of Jews.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 474 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:25 EST
Commander of the Security Police and the SD Einsatzkommando 3
Kovno, 1.December.1941
Reich Secret Document
. . .I confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of solving
the Jewish problem in Lithuania: There are no more Jewish in Lithuania, apart
from working Jews and their families.
I wanted to eliminate the working Jews and their families as well, but the
Civil Administration and the Wehrmacht attacked me most sharply and issued a
prohibition against having these Jews and their families shot.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 475 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:26 EST
Kiev, 16.May.1942
Reich Secret Document
To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff Berlin
The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been completed...
I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house trailers, by having
a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and on the large
ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the country. The
vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but the civilian
population referred to them as the "Death Vans" as soon as one appeared....
I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far away as
possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent damage to
their health in the event of gas leaking out...
The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to get the Aktion
finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the accelerator as
far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die of suffocation
and do not doze off as was planned....
Dr. Becker
SS Untersturmfuehrer
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 476 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:27 EST
Minsk, 31.July.1942
To Reichkommissar for Ostland Gauleiter Hinrich Lohse Riga
Secret
....Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews,
whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us....
In Baranowitschi there are still another 10,000 Jews in the city itself, of
whom 9,000 will be liquidated next month...
Naturally I and the SD would like it best if the Jewry in the Generalbezirk of
Byelorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by
the Wehrmacht. For the time being the essential requirements of the Wehrmacht,
the main employer of Jewry, are being taken into consideration...
The Generalkommissar for Byelorussia
signed Kube
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 477 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 16:28 EST
11.July.1943
Fuehrer Headquarters
Circular No. 33/43 g.
RE: Treatment of the Jewish Question
On instructions of the Guehrer I make known the following:
Where the Jewish Question is brought up in public, there may be no discussion
of a future overall solution. It may, however, be mentioned that the Jews are
taken in groups for appropriate labor purposes.
signed M. Bormann
Distribution: Reichsleiter
Gauleiter
Group leaders
[Apparently, the Final Solution had nothing to do with forced labor, either.
Hmmm.]
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 478 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:19 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 348) ---
>Maybe you should try reading some factual material for a while. Yes,
those in charge of Auschwitz (i.e. the Polish gov't) did claim that 4
million had been exterminated in POLAND (as opposed to Auschwitz
only). Slight difference, isn't it?
More than slight. The trouble with studying the Holocaust is that
there is so little FACTUAL material available from the
exterminationist side. For example, at the Nuremberg trials the 4
million figure was established as the number of deaths at
Auschwitz/Birkenau. There were plaques at Auschwitz until recently
that proclaimed, in 19 languages (I believe) that there were four
million victims there. Now, those plaques have been wiped clean.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 479 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:20 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 349) ---
The fact that Hitler and the Third Reich gave immunity to baptized,
Christianized Jews, should once and for all demolish the vile slander
that National Socialism was intrinsically against Christianity. It
was not. National Socialism was fundamentally, positively Christian.
In a conference with Friedrich Christian Prinz zu Schaumburg-Lippe,
Hitler declared that a confrontation between religion and politics is
damaging to both, and that the state needs "religious citizens as the
foundation for a moral and clean society."
---
I have no doubt that some Jews "converted" only temporarily, but this
hardly weakens my position!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 480 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:20 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 350) ---
Yes, I have a record of all the posts in this topic. I made a point
about the limited number of members of the Einsatzgruppen, the
limited territory over which they operated, and the limited amount of
time they were in use. You have yet to directly respond to this,
instead preferring to quote Webster (???) and continue to blame
millions of Jewish deaths on people who were not Nazis. Thanks for
helping make my case.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 481 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:21 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 352) ---
I also have Hilberg's original volume. Interesting how his position
changes from version to version, isn't it?
---
As to the quote, I have it in front of me. When you leave out
Hilberg's pejorative comments and guesswork, what you have is the
sentence I quoted: "Generally speaking, we find in the reports one
overall justification for the killings: the Jewish danger."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 482 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:21 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 355) ---
>Historical research demands that ALL the documents must be viewed in
relation to each other.
You keep saying this but you don't practice it. Why don't you view
the Einsatzgruppen reports I mention in this context, and tell me
what those mean-old Nazis really meant when they said they were
setting up ghettos for Jews, and building hospitals? Why don't you
mention that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of Einsatzgruppen
reports, many of which are on topics such as food, farming, churches,
and other normal day-to-day activities of running the occupied
territories? You present yourself as being knowledgeable about all
this, how about if you explain Einsatzgruppen reports of 31.Oct.1941,
24.July.1941, and 5.Aug.1941?
---
Also on the subject of context, you might try to explain why the
Germans pursued the Europa Plan if they were intent on killing Jews?
The Europa Plan was authorized both by Himmler and by Hitler (Hitler
also authorized a similar plan involved Romania). Both plans fell
through because of the other side of the negotiations, NOT because of
the Germans.
---
And what about the Madagascar Plan, about which there seems to be
some confusion in your mind. The RSHA is a part of the SS (posting
356). The Madagascar Plan was discussed, however, in the Foreign
Ministry as well as in the RSHA. If this Plan was not serious, why
would the Nazis go to these extreme lengths to fool themselves? By
the way, the term "Final Solution" was applied to the Madagascar
Plan, as it was to subsequent relocation plans after the Madagascar
Plan fell through. At this point, Heydrich, who was in charge of the
Madagascar Plan, called the Wannsee Conference to coordinate the new
relocation plan.
---
Basically, you have nothing in the way of proof that there was a Nazi
policy of exterminating Jews just for being Jews, you seem to be in a
bit of a spot. You claim that Hitler (et al) must have known of this
policy because the Einsatzgruppen reports told them so. They do no
such thing. They do show that the Einsatzgruppen was NOT engaged in
the wanton murder of Jews as Jews. Because you have lost that
toehold, you now claim that these "auxiliary groups" did the dirty
work. On orders from whom? Hitler? Himmler? Who? Where are these
orders. Remember, you said there was a policy of extermination
against Jews as Jews.
---
While you are working on this, you might care to illuminate for the
others the reason why the state of Israel has not released the
Himmler diary. If there was a policy of extermination against the
Jews, it should be note there, yes? Of course, until they do release
it we will have to make do with letters from Himmler, such as the one
in which he states that the propaganda allegations of mass murder are
going to be used against the Germans should they lose the war. Hardly
an admission of guilt!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 483 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:22 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 347, 351, 354, etc.) ---
What you call "debate" is more properly divided into the two
categories of "propaganda" and "damage control."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 484 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:22 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 356) ---
Okay, let's look at your postings 270, 271, 272, and 273.
---
regarding 270
The sender of this missive is asking for an interpretation of a
previous message. In other words, the previous message was not stated
clearly. He is asking for clarification. If you are reading something
else into this, you are over-eager.
---
regarding 271
This message states that the answer to a previous message has been
given in some other (verbal) message. Thus, there is no repeat of
that verbal message here. Nothing can be made of that. Then, the
message states that, "In principle, economic considerations are not
to be taken into account in the settlement of the (Jewish) problem."
I take this to mean that no matter what it costs to resettle the Jews
(or house them, etc.), work must proceed in this area. There is
nothing sinister here unless you read something into it, based on a
bias against the Germans and a prejudice against the truth.
---
regarding 272
This is a message from a man pleading to be allowed to keep his Jews
so they can be left at their jobs. This hardly sounds like mass
murder!
---
regarding 273
An even more remarkable document! Here is a man asking for special
consideration for Jews! Perhaps you are of the opinion that the Nazis
were killing the Jews with kindness?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 485 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:23 EST
to Pooh.bah (regarding 359) ---
I meant to posting "western Allies" instead of merely "Allies."
However, when you state that "most of the evidence came from the Nazi
documents," you are playing another little word game with us. Perhaps
by number or weight, there were more Nazi documents presented at
Nuremberg. But what about the Soviet documents that accused the Nazis
of using atomic devices to vaporize Jews? What about Soviet documents
that Nazis electrocuted masses of Jews in huge vats? What about
Soviet documents that Nazis used a pedal-operated brain-bashing
machine to kill Jews? Get serious. And as to your question, the
Soviets certainly DID tamper with evidence, which includes outright
forgeries, partial forgeries, unsworn affidavits, etc. Why are you so
eager to leap to the defense of the Communists?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 486 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:23 EST
To Carl Fink (regarding 379) ---
The debate about the Holohoax should not be over either the WHY or
the THAT, but rather over the HOW. And although I liked your
comparison to the debate over the evolutionary process, we are
talking about a historical event, not a prehistoric event. I trust
you will be able to appreciate the difference.
---
The reason the discrepancies between the Functionalists and the
Intentionalists are important is because there is no agreement on any
of the major points. For example, the functionalist position
implicitly (if not explicitly) invalidates the Hoess "confession." At
least with evolution scientists have a clue. With the Holocaust, the
exterminationists do not.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 487 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:24 EST
To Paul Bobbitt and P. Nanson (regarding 382) ---
If you are really so interested in M.Rungu, why not present your
concerns in a direct question and see what he says?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 488 Sat Mar 21, 1992
G.RAVEN at 18:24 EST
To DD.Langdon (regarding 383) ---
Exactly what kind of evidence would you accept as proof that
something did NOT exist or occur?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 489 Sat Mar 21, 1992
W.GROSS4 at 18:31 EST
rI have just stepped into this interesting topic and read a whole bunch of
messages. I have just a couple of observations.
I remember a thing called Ocam's Razor in philosophy, it says in short, the
simplest answer is probably the correct one. Now departing from that point,
let me relate an occurance in Sept. of 1987. I was in Germany taking part in
REFORGER 87. We fininshed that exercise near the Bergen-Hohen Training area
in Northern Germany. It was located in the same area as the Bergen-Belsen
Camp. The one liberated by the Brits in 1945. We had a few days to kill
before we returned to the States, a few of us Texas boys went to the site of
the former Camp. The FRG had turned it into a memorial park with a large
number of mass graves landscaped and identified with plaques that had wording
like "here lie 5000 dead" or "here lie uncounted dead." Now why would the FRG
go to the problem to build such a large park to perpetuate a myth. It does
seem to violate Ocam's Razor.
Second on comparing funeral home crematories with one that migh have been
designed to handle large number of corpses really doesn't make sense. You can
run a house on a 15 kw generator, to provide electricty to a city you build a
much larger plant. So, if the German's were going to build a furnace to
cremate large number of bodies they certainly would design it for the capcity
neeeded.
Lastly the comment about the break down of food distribution and medical
serivces in Nazi Germany. The German's were delivery mail up until two weeks
before the fall on Berlin, if they could deliver mail you'd think they could
do some of the other things. Of course mail is easier to move. Yet if they
were doing that, they could have been delivering food and medical services for
much later than has been implied.
But what do I know I am no expert.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 490 Sat Mar 21, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 18:42 EST
483 Raven:
The only "damage control" in which Pooh-Bah is engaged is the amount of damage
she wishes to inflict on your sorry position.
485 Raven:
What a cute implication: Pooh-Bah is "so eager" to leap to the defense of the
Communists? So are we now implying that people who know that the Holocaust
happened are Communists?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 491 Sat Mar 21, 1992
SPEAKER at 19:52 EST
I sift through the ashes and what do I find? The lives and dreams and hopes of
those who have died. The survivors have given voice to their strife - they've
borne witness to days of torturous life. Some of the perpetrators have told of
their crime - orders were followed without reason or rhyme. Yet, through it
all we have lost stories galore of those who perished in the madness of the
storm. Here, then, I step up to speak of lives so precious and deaths so
bleak. Listen if you dare to the tales I tell: I speak of what I know and that
I know well.
At 15, Petr Fischl wrote no poetry. Yet, he did not depart this world without
telling his tale. In a diary he left upon the shelf, his lyrical prose call
out.
-------------------------
We got used to standing in line at 7 o'clock in the morning, at 12 noon and
again at seven o'clock in the evening. We stood in a long queue with a plate
in our hand, into which they ladled a little warmed-up water with a salty or a
coffee flavor. Or else they gave us a few potatoes. We got used to sleeping
without a bed, to saluting every uniform, not to walk on the sidewalks and
then again to walk on the sidewalks. We got used to undeserved slaps, blows
and executions. We got accustomed to seeing people die in their own excrement,
to seeing piled-up coffins full of corpses, to seeing the sick amidst dirt and
filth and to seeing the helpless doctors. We got used to it that from time to
time, one thousand unhappy souls would come here and that, from time to time,
another thousand unhappy souls would go away....
-----------------------------
Born in Prague, September 9, 1929, Petr didn't have long to live. His days at
Theresienstadt were dark and drear. On October 8, 1944 - six months before
liberation - Petr took his final walk this time into a gas chamber. How tragic
he was never given a chance to get "used to" Auschwitz.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 492 Sat Mar 21, 1992
P.NANSON [eclectic] at 20:21 EST
Re: Message 479
G.RAVEN;
> The fact that Hitler and the Third Reich gave immunity to
>baptized, Christianized Jews, should once and for all demolish
>the vile slander that National Socialism was intrinsically
>against Christianity. It was not. National Socialism was
>fundamentally, positively Christian.
Garbage. Dietrich Bonhoeffer didn't think so, and he paid for saying so. He
was arrested by the Gestapo on April 5th in 1943, and spent two years in
Gestapo prisons and concentration camps, uncluding Buchenwald. He was
excecuted by special order of Himmler at the Flossenburg concentration camp on
April 9th, 1945, just days before the Allies liberated it.
Reinhold Niebuhr didn't believe the Nazis were Christians, either.
At least now you're coming clean as a Nazi apologist.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: Message 483
G.RAVEN;
> What you call "debate" is more properly divided into the two
>categories of "propaganda" and "damage control."
Strange, Greg Raven, but I just had the same thought about you.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: Message 487
G.RAVEN;
> To Paul Bobbitt and P. Nanson (regarding 382) ---
> If you are really so interested in M.Rungu, why not present your
>concerns in a direct question and see what he says?
You seem to be the only one who knows for certain that M.Rungu is a "he."
What should we ask him?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 493 Sat Mar 21, 1992
AH.STEIN at 21:00 EST
478 nevaR:
>The trouble with studying the Holocaust is that
there is so little FACTUAL material available from the
exterminationist side.
I don't see why that would bother you even if it was true, which as you
well know it isn't. Since when have you been bothering with facts.
To everyone: I have decided that, since nevaR (Raven) and ugnuR (Rungu)
keep getting everything backwards, it would be appropriate to write their
names backwards from now on.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 494 Sat Mar 21, 1992
AH.STEIN at 21:00 EST
479 nevaR:
>The fact that Hitler and the Third Reich gave immunity to baptized,
Christianized Jews ...
Once again, I imagine that the relatives of Edith Stein (or was it Stern?),
born a Jew but murdered by the Nazis while she was a nun, might question
that lie.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 495 Sat Mar 21, 1992
AH.STEIN at 21:00 EST
483 nevaR:
> What you call "debate" is more properly divided into the two
categories of "propaganda" and "damage control."
For once, you're actually correct!
You spread false propaganda, and Pooh.Bah controls the damage you are
trying to cause.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 496 Sat Mar 21, 1992
AH.STEIN at 21:01 EST
484 nevaR:
>This is a message from a man pleading to be allowed to keep his Jews
so they can be left at their jobs.
Are you claiming that the Nazis kept Jews as slaves?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 497 Sat Mar 21, 1992
AH.STEIN at 21:01 EST
485 nevaR:
> I meant to posting "western Allies" instead of merely "Allies." (sic)
One of your more cogent statements.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 498 Sat Mar 21, 1992
AH.STEIN at 21:01 EST
486 nevaR:
> The debate about the Holohoax (sic) should not be over either the WHY or
the THAT, but rather over the HOW.
Ignoring the fact that you seem to be incapable of spelling Holocaust
correctly (perhaps you should try Shoah instead, it's shorter), at least
you now seem to admitting that it did occur and just want to argue over the
methods.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 499 Sat Mar 21, 1992
AH.STEIN at 21:02 EST
488 nevaR:
> Exactly what kind of evidence would you accept as proof that
something did NOT exist or occur?
Exactly what kind of evidence would you accept as proof that
something did exist or occur?
Sorry about that; I know it's one of those despicable Jewish traits to
answer a question with a question. If your hero, Adolph Hitler, had
succeeded, then you wouldn't be subjected to this.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 500 Sat Mar 21, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 21:49 EST
>To Carl Fink (regarding 379) ---
>the debate about the Holohoax should not be over either the WHY or
>the THAT, but rather over the HOW. And although I liked your
>comparison to the debate over the evolutionary process, we are
>talking about a historical event, not a prehistoric event. I trust
>you will be able to appreciate the difference.
Yes, Raven, I'm well aware - could you please adopt a less superior tone?
We are considering a PAST event - in either case, we consider evidence in much
the same way. And you can't simply assert things, Raven. WHY should the
debate be over HOW, rather than IF? Surely, HOW affects IF, but why does it
take precedence? (Not that there's any actual debate on this matter.)
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 501 Sat Mar 21, 1992
TERMY at 21:56 EST
421 Mr./Ms. Rungu,
->When or where did I claim that I received the Butz book from Mr. Raven,
->on a Sunday, and became an "instant expert". This is distortion in -
>true holocaustspeak fashion.
I said, "On Sat., 14 March, Mr. Raven informed them of Mr. Butz'
book. On Sunday, a copy of said book was delivered to Mr/Ms Rungu and
an instant expert was made." (Note: I did not say Mr. Raven sent the
books to Mr./Ms. Rungu.)
It appears I was mistaken; it was Pooh.Bah, not Mr. Raven, who informed
you of Butz' book. And, a careful scrutiny of the situation suggests
that you received the books no later than Sunday, 15 March, perhaps
earlier. I offer the following excerpts from some of your early posts as
evidence.
TO ALL: PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THE TIME/DATE STAMPS ON THE FOLLOWING
MESSAGE EXCERPTS.
Message 3 Thu Mar 12, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:45 EST
[One paragraph deleted]
I for one don't know much about the subject, but would like to learn more
about it, and if there is more than one side to it, I am all for hearing
the pros and cons.
[One sentence deleted]
-----------
Message 85 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:58 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Thankyou for answering the questions I posed, they did help me quite a
lot. Unfortunately, I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH BUTZ, LEUCHTER, AND
THE OTHERS [emphasis mine]. And I did address my question to "The
Raven" rather than to you. Please let HIM answer them, thankyou.
[One sentence deleted]
------------
Message 148 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:19 EST
[Three paragraphs deleted]
By the way, I was able to get copies of Butz's ("THE HOAX OF THE 20TH
CENTURY") and Leuchter's ("THE LEUCHTER REPORT") books in the mail. I've
only read parts of them so far, but they look quite interesting. Not at
all crackpot.
------------------
How does one who is "not familiar with Butz, Leuchter, and the others" on
Saturday at 18:58 EST, receive copies of Butz' and Leuchter's work BY
Sunday and 19:19 EST, via mail?
Another message excerpt:
Message 52 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:09 EST
[Approximately two and 1/2 paragraphs deleted]
You said in one of your notes that there were "no gas chambers". What
are your sources for this? Can you name some books or studies or
whatever to back up that statement.
[Approximately one and 1/2 paragraphs deleted]
--------------
This message suggests you were not aware of Mr. Raven's sources, and
corroborates your statement of unfamiliarity with Butz, et al.
You've gone from "relative know-nothing" to one who highly knowledgable
in denier information in 1 week, 2 days. You knew nothing of Butz, et
al. on Sat. afternoon, yet received copies of their works in the mail by
Sunday afternoon, approx. 25 hrs later.
You will, of course, excuse me if I find you less than credible.
Gary R. Raper, Jr.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 505 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:33 EST
I posted:
> 15.November.1941
>
>Reichskommissar for Ostland
>IIa 4
>Secret
>
>To: Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories
>
>RE: Execution of Jews
>
>. . .Will you please inform me whether your inquiry of 31.October should be
>interpreted as a directive to liquidate all the Jews in Ostland? Is this to
>be done regardless of age, sex, and economic requirements (for instance, the
>Wehrmacht's demand for skilled workers in the armament industry)? Of course
>the cleansing of Ostland of Jews is a most important task; its solution,
>however, must be in accord with the requirements of war production. . .
>
> Loshe
> Reichskommissar for Ostland
Raven replied:
>> The sender of this missive is asking for an interpretation of a
>> previous message. In other words, the previous message was not stated
>> clearly. He is asking for clarification. If you are reading something
>> else into this, you are over-eager.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 506 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:34 EST
I posted (a reply to the previous message):
> 18.December.1941
> Berlin
>
>Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories
>
>To: Reichskommissar for Ostland
>
>RE: Jewish question
>
>The Jewish question has presumably been clarified meanwhile by means of
>verbal discussion. In principle, economic considerations are not to be taken
>into account in the settlement of the problem. It is further requested that
>any questions that arise be settled directly with the Higher SS and Police
>Leader.
>
> Braeutigam
Raven replied:
>> This message states that the answer to a previous message has been
>> given in some other (verbal) message. Thus, there is no repeat of
>> that verbal message here. Nothing can be made of that. Then, the
>> message states that, "In principle, economic considerations are not
>> to be taken into account in the settlement of the (Jewish) problem."
>> I take this to mean that no matter what it costs to resettle the Jews
>> (or house them, etc.), work must proceed in this area. There is
>> nothing sinister here unless you read something into it, based on a
>> bias against the Germans and a prejudice against the truth.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 507 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:35 EST
I posted:
> December.1941
>
>Reichskommissar for Ostland
>
>To: Higher SS and Police Leader
>
>. . . I request most emphatically that the liquidation of Jews employed as
>skilled workers in armament plants and repair workshops of the Wehrmacht who
>cannot be replaced at present by local personnel be prevented. . .
>
>. . . Provision is to be made as quickly as possible for the training of
>suitable local personnel as skilled workers. . .
>
> Loshe
> Reichskommissar for Ostland
Raven replied:
>> This is a message from a man pleading to be allowed to keep his Jews
>> so they can be left at their jobs. This hardly sounds like mass
>> murder!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 508 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:35 EST
I posted:
> 16.December.1941
> Minsk
>
>Generalkommissar for Byelorussia
>
>To: Reichskommissar for Ostland
>
>I wish to ask you personally for an official directive for the conduct of
>the civilian administration towards the Jews deported from Germany to
>Byelorussia. Among these Jews are men who fought at the Front and have the
>Iron Cross, First and Second Class, war invalids, half-Aryans, even three-
>quarter Aryans. . .
>
>. . .These Jews will probably freeze or starve to death in the coming weeks.
>. . On my own responsibility I will not give the SD any instructions with
>regard to the treatment of these people. . .
>
>I am certainly a hard [man] and willing to help solve the Jewish question,
>but people who come from our own cultural sphere just are not the same as
>the brutish hordes in this place. Is the slaughter to be carried out by the
>Lithuanians and Letts, who are themselves rejected by the population here?
>I couldn't do it. I beg you to give clear directives [in this matter,] with
>due consideration for the good name of our Reich and our Party, in order
>that the necessary action can be taken in the most humane manner.
>
> Heil Hitler!
> Wilhelm Kube
Raven replied:
>> An even more remarkable document! Here is a man asking for special
>> consideration for Jews! Perhaps you are of the opinion that the Nazis
>> were killing the Jews with kindness?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 509 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:36 EST
478 Raven:
> For example, at the Nuremberg trials the 4 million figure was established
> as the number of deaths at Auschwitz/Birkenau.
The Nuremberg Trials are a historical event - not a recorder of history.
Historical accounts have never recorded the 4 million figure.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 510 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:36 EST
479 Raven:
> The fact that Hitler and the Third Reich gave immunity to baptized,
> Christianized Jews, should once and for all demolish the vile slander
> that National Socialism was intrinsically against Christianity. It
> was not. National Socialism was fundamentally, positively Christian.
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity.
Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the
Jews."
Adolph Hitler
Mind if I ask the source for your assertions?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 511 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:37 EST
481 Raven:
> As to the quote, I have it in front of me. When you leave out
> Hilberg's pejorative comments and guesswork, what you have is the
> sentence I quoted: "Generally speaking, we find in the reports one
> overall justification for the killings: the Jewish danger."
Ah, but that isn't what you originally claimed, was it?
This thread began when you stated:
> Hilberg acknowledges that the Einsatzgrupen did not kill Jews without a
> security reason (1985 edition)
So, you start out by claiming that Hilberg "acknowledges" that the
Einsatzgruppen did not kill Jews without a security reason but, when I
pointed out to you that this was taken drastically out of context (deleting
key words such as "rationalization" and "fiction") you stated these are
"pejorative comments and guesswork."
The fact remains that you took Hilberg out of context and, therefore, you did
not come close to proving your original contention.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 512 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:38 EST
Quoth the Raven:
> You present yourself as being knowledgeable about all this, how about if
> you explain Einsatzgruppen reports of 31.Oct.1941, 24.July.1941, and
> 5.Aug.1941?
Has anyone wondered yet why it is that I quote the documents and allow them
to make my point but Raven just throws out dates and implies that there is
something that _I_ am hidding?
Raven: Quote the documents and don't lower yourself to vague innuendo. Just
be sure that you quote in context, okay?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 513 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:38 EST
482 Raven:
> Also on the subject of context, you might try to explain why the
> Germans pursued the Europa Plan if they were intent on killing Jews?
> The Europa Plan was authorized both by Himmler and by Hitler (Hitler
> also authorized a similar plan involved Romania).
Now this is really funny. The Nazis desired foreign exchange and were willing
to ransom off some Jews. There was just one tiny problem, however. This was
in 1942-1943 and there was a little something called WWII in progress. As
with most wars, it was prohibited to give foreign currency to the enemy. The
Nazis wanted US dollars and the US wouldn't approve the transfer.
Proves once again what great humanitarians Hitler and Himmler were. I think
we would call this "money for hostages" today. If it had gone through, we
might even get to read about "Nazigate".
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 514 Sat Mar 21, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:39 EST
482 Raven:
> At this point, Heydrich, who was in charge of the Madagascar Plan, called
> the Wannsee Conference to coordinate the new relocation plan.
Boy, if you're willing to buy that one, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell
you!
The date that the Madagascar PlanS (remember that there was more than one)
were formulated was July 1940.
The Wannsee Conference was due to commence in December of 1941 but the Nazi
declaration of war on the US pushed the final date back to January 20, 1942.
Now, do you really expect us to believe that Heydrich called a meeting 18
months ahead of time?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 515 Sun Mar 22, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:54 EST
Ravens are those repulsive black crows that feed on the flesh of the dead, the
same harbingers of death shown chasing Jewish charactures in Nazi "Juden Raus"
propaganda posters.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 516 Sun Mar 22, 1992
RUDOLPH at 01:00 EST
Unbelievable!!! I have just spent hours reading this topic. I must admit I
am disturbed. Poo.bah has posted numerous messages responding in detail to
challenge after challenge from Raven/Rungu (who are figuratively if not
physically the same person). Pooh's responses are cogent, well thought out
and convincing. Pooh has cited original sources which clearly prove his point
of view well beyond a thoughtful or reasonable doubt. Since Raven/ Rungu have
said what they seek is open debate, and they have "open minds," I have been
expecting them to acknowledge that the Holocaust Revisionist point of view
must be wrong. I am surprised and saddened that they are sticking to their
original point-of-view despite the overwhelming evidence Pooh has posted to
educate them about what is obviously a truthful albeit terrible historical
fact...that the Holocaust really did happen as a planned policy of Nazi
Germany. BTW, while I find the whole issue of Intentionalist vs.
Functionalist interesting, it in no way lends aa/ ny evidence to
Raven/Rungu's position that the Holocaust didn't happen. What it does tell
us is that Holocaust scholars seem to be committed to open debate concerning
those issues which are not historically evident in a clear and obvious way,
i.e. that there was indeed a Nazi German government policy to kill people only
because they were Jews.
I want to thank Raven/Rungu for forcing this debate onto GEnie. I have have
learned more about the Holocaust than I ever really wanted to know. I have
also discovered that there is some kind of cynical, underhanded plot by some
people to spread a message that the Holocaust never happened. At first I was
willing to take at face value that Raven/Rungu were simply open minded people
seeking the truth. I now must believe that this is actually a plot to cause
anti-semitism or anti- Zionism or something like that. Raven/Rungu, I am not
accusing you of being anti-semites! I am saying that based on your inability
to respond in a thoughtful and cogent manner to Pooh v 4 s. Pooh's ability
to present clear, well document facts and original sources, coupled with your
attempts to continue the battle instead of realizing that you must be wrong
and declaring that you are\ mistaken, leads me to no other supposition than
that you are holding this debate, not to determine the truth, but rather to
spread falsehood. Why would you, when your case is clearly so weak, continue
to argue it, if not to somehow and for some reason defame Jews? Based on this
debate, if you continue to claim that you are simply seeking to find the truth
with an open mind, either you are idiots, or liars!
Please, prove me wrong by presenting original sources to defend your position,
Rave/Rungu; Respond directly to Pooh's challenges just as Pooh responds
directly to yours, use logic and thoughtful argument instead of the mush you
are slinging, and I will not sit here so offended by your abuse of debate,
history and scholarship. So far this does not read like an open debate so
much as a Raven/Rungu attempt at Z propaganda which is being demolished by
a much more knowledgeable Pooh. State sources and argue logically, or stop
this insult ;. to intelligence! z ince Raven/ Rungu have said what they
seek is open debate, and they have "open minds," I have been expectingo =
@;|= @> @ I have been trying without success to eliminate the last two and
a half lines from this posting (after intelligence!) which appeared in the
Upload. I can't seem to do it, so please disregard those last 2 1/2 lines.
Thanks.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 517 Sun Mar 22, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 01:43 EST
Rudolph:
Try doing an *L command to see what number lines the ones you want to axe are,
and then type "*d,(Line#from),(Line#to)" (without the quote marks).
Dave
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 518 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:32 EST
To Termy (regarding 388) ---
I know how much difficulty I have trying to save the texts of these
messages in some usable form, and it seems that you are having some
trouble with this, too. You stated: "On Sat., 14 March, Mr. Raven
informed them (M.RUNGU) of Mr. Butz' book." Actually, it was Pooh.bah
who provided that information to M.RUNGU. By the way, without
presuming to answer for M.RUNGU, here in Los Angeles we get Saturday
delivery from Express Mail, Federal Express, UPS, and Airborne
Express, if memory serves.
---
You also stated: "Mr. Raven & Mr/Ms Rungu, in their early posts
(#1-40) intimated that they were unacquainted with one another, yet
later posts clearly show a cooperative effort on their part. I
believe Paul Nanson & Jon W. have noted this apparent contradiction,
as have others, citing posts, if memory serves, #230-239 as
evidence..." According to my records, I did not respond to M.RUNGU
directly or indirectly until 234, at which time I provided a source
for a book he was seeking. This is the only time I responded to
M.RUNGU, in spite of many questions asked of me in M.RUNGU's posts.
---
Although it cannot make any difference to this debate, the only
organizations to which I "belong" are the NRA, the Libertarian Party,
and the California Rifle and Piston Association. I do not currently
and never have belonged to any white supremacist or other "racist"
organization, although if I did I would not mind mentioning it
because my arguments must be considered independent of any real or
assumed background of mine. In other words, if it pleases you to
think I am Racial Hatred Incarnate, that's your cross to bear. Just
leave the name-calling out of the discussion and deal with what I
say. There should be enough there into which you can sink your teeth.
---
As to my "explanation of how the Jews, supposedly an inferior race,
were capable of mastering a superior (presumably "Aryan") race," you
should have read my post more carefully. I said nothing about Jews
being inferior or superior to anyone else, and I did not comment on
their so-called ability to dominate a superior race while being
inferior, etc. What I said was, "in economics, bad money ALWAYS
pushes out good. In other areas, the larger the crime organization
the more they push away the smaller criminals and the honest people.
Therefore it is not out of the question that something 'inferior'
could come to dominate something 'superior.'"
---
Finally, it is not my credibility that is at stake, but the
credibility of a massive lie that has been perpetrated through the
years. You must certainly realize that you are lied to on a regular
basis by the government and the media ... sometimes intentionally and
sometimes unintentionally. If you have not yet reached this
realization, the bulk of this discussion may be beyond you.
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 519 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:33 EST
To P.Nanson (regarding 338) ---
You have misconstrued my intent. I do not wish to cover up the
Holohoax. I wish to reveal it for the propaganda it is. It never
happened, therefore it would be difficult for me in talking about as
I do to assist in covering it up.
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 520 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:34 EST
To R.Arbetman (regarding 428) ---
Holocaust denial may be an element of neo-Nazi organizations, but no
form of Nazism is an element of Holocaust denial. Just because you
don't like (or more likely, don't know anything true about) Adolf
Hitler does not make him less a great man. To put it another way, why
is it so important for exterminationists, who claim to have all this
evidence, to try to discredit Holocaust revisionism with pejorative
labels? If they had any solid facts, they could simply argue those
instead.
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 521 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:34 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 430) ---
So when Elie Wiesel talks, we must filter out all the "imagination,"
the "allegory," and the insupportable "assertions" in order to arrive
at his real meaning? Gee, I was relying on facts. Perhaps you
shouldn't depend on someone in need of deep therapy as a source, huh?
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 522 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:35 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 433) ---
>For me to be right, all that is needed is a single example where
Jews were killed for "belonging to the Jewish race".
---
Guess again. You claimed that the Nazis had a policy of killing Jews
as Jews. If a few Jews were killed merely for being Jews, that
certainly is bad. But it is a long way from being an official policy.
In order for you to prove your thesis, you must show overwhelming
evidence that this policy was being followed. However, as long as the
Nazis were building hospitals for Jews, setting up ghettos for Jews,
attempting to negotiate with other countries to accept the Jews so
the Germans could export them, attempting to keep them alive for
various reasons (work being chief among them), and expressing relief
upon arriving at towns to find the Jews all gone, you have some
serious holes in your argument.
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 523 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:35 EST
To AH.STEIN (regarding 441) ---
>aren't you trying to convince people there weren't any (crematoria)?
---
You need to go back to Holocaust studies class. Of course the
concentration camps had crematoria. Most cities of any size did, and
all for the same reason: to cremate corpses to prevent the spread of
disease. Crematoria are not and were not used for murdering people.
You see? Even you have been mislead by the constant retelling of the
Holohoax. Don't you understand that everyone is being used by this
lie?
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 524 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:35 EST
To AH.STEIN (regarding 453) ---
Until you know how many Jews died of natural causes in Europe during
the war years (1939-1945) by number and by percent, you should not be
so quick to pooh-pooh the 600,000 figure.
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 525 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:36 EST
To Carl Fink (regarding 459) ---
>You're better off with a medical book on autopsies, Raven.
Physiology really only applies to living organisms.
---
The physiology book was recommended to me by Pooh.bah. 'Nuf said?
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 526 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:36 EST
To John Stengel (regarding 461) ---
>Come on Raven, can you seriously maintain that Nazi Germany, which
produced enough rifles, tanks, artillery pieces, submarines etc. to
nearly defeat the combined might of The United States, The Soviet
Union, Great Britain (and various other lesser powers), would have a
problem producing 626 crematories?
---
They might have been able to produce 626 crematories, but they did
not ... at least not at the so-called "killing centers." And, because
we have the original plans of these crematoria and can examine some
of those that remain, we can tell that they were little different
from modern crematoria. That is, they did not hold 100 bodies. At any
rate, the more bodies you put in, the longer it takes to reduce them
to ash. This is very straightforward.
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 527 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:37 EST
To RTRAYNOR (regarding 462) ---
>the supposition that Nazi crematoria must function in exactly the
same fashion as those used by funeral homes in 1990s America is a
pretty silly one.
---
If it were nothing more than a supposition, it would be silly.
However, we can examine the actual crematoria, the plans from which
they were built, and (I believe) the patent papers for these same
crematoria. These all show that there was nothing special or unusual
about these devices, which were commonplace throughout Europe then as
now.
Greg Raven
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 528 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 08:24 EST
512 Pooh.Bah:
> Has anyone wondered yet why it is that I quote the documents and allow
them to make my point but Raven just throws out dates and implies that
there is something that _I_ am hidding?
False innuendo is a staple of the neo-Nazis and Nazi sympathizers who are
trying to erase the memory of the millions of people, including
approximately six million Jews, murdered by their idols in the Holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 530 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 09:16 EST
519 nevaR gerG:
> You have misconstrued my intent.
Obviously not.
>I do not wish to cover up the Holohoax (sic).
Please use a spell checker. Once again, may I suggest that if "Holocaust"
is too long a word for you to spell correctly, you may desire to write
"Shoah" instead.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 531 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 09:16 EST
nevaR gerG:
>Just because you don't like (or more likely, don't know anything true
about) Adolf Hitler does not make him less a great man.
You seem to be enamored of the Austrian house painter. I'd be interested
in hearing your opinion of him.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 535 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 09:18 EST
524 nevaR gerG:
>Until you know how many Jews died of natural causes in Europe during
the war years (1939-1945) by number and by percent, you should not be
so quick to pooh-pooh the 600,000 figure.
I'd suggest that until you learn some facts yourself, you stop trying to
direct the education of others.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 536 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 09:19 EST
527 nevaR gerG:
> However, we can examine the actual crematoria, the plans from which
they were built, and (I believe) the patent papers for these same
crematoria. These all show that there was nothing special or unusual
about these devices ...
Are you now claiming to be as much an expert on crematoria as the admitted
liar, rethcueL derF?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 537 Sun Mar 22, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:25 EST
There are apparent some people participating in this TOPic who don't
understand the difference between "history," "literature" and "court records."
It is also apparent that some people don't understand that when the question
is changed, the amount of proof required changes also.
Therefore, since there might be others lurking here who are confused, too, let
me make a few comments on the above. Someone who writes literature (as in Elie
Wiesel) will use certain literary devices such as simile, metaphor, allegory,
etc. If such a person were to say: "That girl is as beautiful as a rose in
June!" we would look ridiculous if we assumed that he was speaking literally
and, because of that, assumed that the girl was heavily wrinkled with a big
head and a skinny body with sharp protuberances.
Scholarly historical accounts will not use such devices although you might
find an occassional "popular history" that will. Since most of us have had
English course which instruct in the literary devices, we usually recognize
them for what they are quite easily.
A court record actually becomes a part of history and not a recorder of
history. The goal of a trial and the goal of historical writing are different.
The trial has the goal of proving a case (or defending against a case)
depending upon which side one is on. Historical writing has the goal of
informing what happened. The difference between the two is that judgement (and
a verdict) is expected in the former and not in the latter. Also, in the
former, evidence is gathered and once the trial begins, that gathering ends.
Historical research is forever gathering information.
And, what about the discussion technique of changing the question for
discussion mid-way through and when one responds to the new question, then it
is pointed out that the original question has gone unproved? Well, basically
that is a technique of obfuscation and used only by those whose viewpoint is
so weak that they must resort to devious practices. For instance, if someone
were to say: "I can prove that there was a systematic extermination program
and, as part of the evidence, I would like to present these documents from the
Einsatzgruppen Reports" and someone else responds (thereby changing the
question): "But all the Jews killed by the Einsaztgruppen were killed for
security reasons" then all the first person has to do to disprove the new
question is supply one example of when the Einsatzgruppen killed Jews for
"belonging to the Jewish race." Once this is done, however, the second person
retorts that this does not prove the original question (which it was never
intended to do....especially since it had already been declared that the
Einsatzgruppen Reports were only PART of the evidence).
Generally, this technique is used only when the party of the second part is
grasping at straws (btw, that is an example of the use of a cliche and I don't
literally mean that someone has a jar of straws slightly out of reach and has,
therefore, lowered himself to grasping at them).
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 538 Sun Mar 22, 1992
ERIC-M at 10:03 EST
>>> POOH.BAH
> The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to get the
> Aktion finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the
> accelerator as far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed
> die of suffocation and do not doze off as was planned....
[talking about the "vans of death"]
What are they talking about? Carbon monoxide poisoning? I thought most of
the "gassing" was from HCN gas. I didn't realize that they had mobile van
units, either.
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 539 Sun Mar 22, 1992
TERMY at 11:12 EST
In reply to: Message 397 M.RUNGU
->Why merely retain all these people in all these camps for years
->and years when they could have been quickly liquidated?
Does the word Bunuwerke ring a bell in your head?
In reply to: Message 399 M.RUNGU
->The free and open discussion of the holocaust often necessitates
->the reminding of various would-be speech suppressors that our
->Constitution does indeed provide certain speech guarantees and
->safeguards.
True. That is the first Amendment to the Constitution. There's a point which
is pertinent to this discussion which deals with innocence & guilt, human
rights and freedoms, and was apparently considered of higher import than even
freedom of speech, as it is found in the main body of the Constitution, not in
an amendment. Does the term "corruption of blood" ring a bell in your head?
In reply to: Message 421 M.RUNGU
->The point is, I am willing to hear and read the revisionist side
->IN ADDITION TO the "exterminationist" side. I am willing to read
->Raul Hilberg and am trying to find his trilogy to see what he has
->to say (at an affordable price though!). At the same time, I
->want to read Butz and see what HE has to say from the other side.
-> Are YOU willing to see/hear both sides? My guess is: NO.
You guess wrong. I'm in the process of obtaining the various
texts written by the Holocaust deniers. I'll be receiving copies of Butz,
Leuchter and Bradley Smith's work, at the outset & will see where they lead
before obtaining further literature from the denier camps.
If nothing else, they'll justify buying another bookcase for fictional works.
Termy
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 540 Sun Mar 22, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 11:38 EST
>>>You're better off with a medical book on autopsies, Raven.
>>> Physiology really only applies to living organisms.
> The physiology book was recommended to me by Pooh.bah. 'Nuf said?
> Greg Raven
Yes, but she's a historian, and I'm a biologist. Why does it surprise you
that I know more biology than she?
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 541 Sun Mar 22, 1992
J.CHILDERS2 [LINDY-JIM] at 12:21 EST
AH.STEIN
It is obvious that you have a desire to ridicule and lambast Raven and Rungu.
However, I believe you are just playing into their hands. Your justifiable
outrage is resulting is a series of rather childish retorts which do not add
to the case for the historical truth of the holocaust. I believe the case is
best represented by utilization of factual evidence. So far it appears that
the debate has centered on POOH.BAH's question as to whether Raven believed
that the Nazis had a plan for the systematic extermination of the Jews in
Europe. Raven has responded that he does not believe that this was the case.
POOH.BAH has presented some evidence to this effect while Raven has presented
some evidence that the Nazis had plans to address the Jewish question by non-
exterminationist methods.
POOH.BAH msg 537
RE: The Einsaztgruppen
It would be possible to argue that if a: The Einsatzgruppen felt that all Jews
were security risks (whether that belief is logical or not) then b: The
identification of a person as a Jew would also mean the identification of that
person as a security risk; and c: It would be valid to say that all Jews who
were killed by the Einsatzgruppen were killed because they were a security
risk (since being a Jew equalled being a security risk).
I would like to say in anticipation of the furor that is likely to erupt from
this message that I believe that the Holocaust did occur. I do not feel that
the case for this has been conclusively proven here primarily because so much
time is being spent on side issues. I will not respond to personal attacks and
in fact do not intend to present any evidence for or against the reality of
the Holocaust since I do not have any. I have an interest in History, (it was
my undergraduate major) but did not specialize in European history. I do have
a desire to see this issue debated to a conclusion.
Jim
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 542 Sun Mar 22, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:42 EST
Jim: Your logic is valid. However, there seems to be a slight point that you
(and probably others here) have missed. The declaration that the executions
were to be carried out on "Jews in general" came on October 12, 1941 while the
declaration as to their "security risk" came October 31, 1941 - over two weeks
later! Therefore, it appears that the action was taken and then the
explanation was announced.
Add to this that pogroms were being incited in the report of July 2, 1941
which is long before any declaration of any sort that Jews were participating
in partisan activities, were Bolsheviks, etc.
Eric: Carbon monoxide was used not only with the gas vans (which were employed
with the euthanasia program, the Einsaztgruppen AND Chelmo extermination camp)
but CO was also the gas used at Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzac....and, for a
while, at Majdanek. HCN (cyanide) was only used at Auschwitz (including
Birkenau) and for part of the time at Majdanek.
There were 6 extermination camps. Four of them used CO exclusively and one of
these four never had permanent gas chambers but, instead, used gas vans
solely. Of the remaining two extermination camps, one used CO in the beginning
and switched to HCN while the other used HCN exclusively. Also, both of these
latter two camps had a section or satellite camps that was a labor camp.
How this helps to give you a general answer to your question. I will be
supplying the documentary evidence for the above statements later when I get
to the discussion of the extermination camps.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 543 Sun Mar 22, 1992
SPEAKER at 16:32 EST
I sift through the ashes and what do I find? The lives and dreams and hopes of
those who have died. The survivors have given voice to their strife - they've
borne witness to days of torturous life. Some of the perpetrators have told of
their crime - orders were followed without reason or rhyme. Yet, through it
all we have lost stories galore of those who perished in the madness of the
storm. Here, then, I step up to speak of lives so precious and deaths so
bleak. Listen if you dare to the tales I tell: I speak of what I know and that
I know well.
Readers, harken, to this simple tale. Piotr Zalewski died not for his birth
but for his love. A former grenadier under the Tsar, he lost his position in
Lenin's Revolution. He finally found his life's calling - nothing grand, mind
you, just a lowly janitor. It wasn't what he did but where he did it that
mattered - in an orphanage in Warsaw that housed Jewish children.
In 39 came the Blitzkrieg and life changed for Piotr and the children. The
order was issued, the orphanage must move. Into the ghetto they went, the boys
and the girls, leaving Piotr the Aryan behind, alone. He petitioned the Nazis
to make an exception. They beat him mercilessly to teach him a lesson. Aryans
weren't allowed behind the walls, you know. But, this did not stop Piotr the
grenadier.
He snuck into the ghetto in the still of the night. There to live with and
comfort the children from fright. They finally parted company when the
children boarded a train but Piotr had found a home and in the ghetto he
remained. It was in 44 when the ghetto was invaded. The resistance held out
longer than had the Polish Army. In the end, the ghetto was taken by Nazi
force and might. And Piotr met his death in the place of his heart. His body
was found, cold and stiff, in the courtyard of the home he loved the best.
Even though the children had long been gone. Piotr died defending the
orphanage they had shared together.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 544 Sun Mar 22, 1992
E.STEWART8 at 17:08 EST
Speaker,
Thank you for providing a voice that brings a proper perspective to this
topic. Each and everyone of the Holocaust victims were unique human beings.
Sometimes it becomes difficult to remember that, when the Holocaust is
discussed in numbers and labels. Each victim had and will forever have an
identity --- a human being with a name, a heart, and a soul.
Ed
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 545 Sun Mar 22, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS at 18:05 EST
A modern crematorium, vintage 1992, requires about an hour to consume ONE
corpse, leaving 4 to 5 kg of coarse lumpy ash. It cannot be operated 24 hours
per day without doing irreparable damage to the facility. It is improbable
that anybody's design from 1930 would be more efficient than a current design.
According to records, Auschwitz was equipped with 3 crematoria. The maximum
capacity would have been about 60 corpses per 24 hour period.
For years, the fatality estimate for this camp had been set at about 4 million
persons. The post-Communist government of Poland has reduced the estimate to
about 1 million, with the comment that previous estimates were Soviet
propaganda fabrications.
The Russians, who had always refused to released the death records of the
camp, did so last year. The 39 bound volumes contain 78,000 names and span the
entire operating period of the camp. If the Polish government estimates are
correct, then only every thirteenth fatality was recorded. Although not
impossible, it seems improbable.
The "Hoess Memorandum" does not constitute proof. It is just a paper document,
the details of which have been contradicted by the current Polish government.
There is evidence to suggest that the document was prepared for Hoess by his
captors and that he was beaten into signing it. His subsequent execution was
quite convenient, since dead people cannot change their minds or retract
statements later.
There is room for legitimate doubt about some of the details which make up the
Holocaust. That being said, I do find it difficult to accept Mr. Raven's
thesis that nothing occurred and that it was entirely a propaganda hoax. This
is a wealth of physical evidence to suggest extreme persecution of certain
minorities, including Jews.
The bluster, hysteria, and personal attacks of Mr. Raven's opponents only
serve to create more doubt. Truth does not require legislation to protect it.
Truth does not require intimidation, bluster, or hysteria to keep it upright.
Truth stands by itself.
If Mr. Raven is correct, no effort, however ardent, will save the Holocaust
story in the long run. If Mr. Raven is wrong in his thesis, then the Holocaust
story will survive any and all research or questions that can be put to it.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 546 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:19 EST
To E.BROWN42,
When or where did I say Lenin and Stalin were "Zionist Jews"? I never even
mentioned their names, as you well know. Scroll through the messages and find
such a quote, please. Oh, I know, what you MEANT was "you IMPLIED this" or
"you were THINKING that". This is a typical smear tactic, and one which I
warned of at the very beginning of this dialogue. When you started 'reading
into' posted messages, when you 'interpret' what has been posted, the
distortion becomes so great that it bears no resemblance at all to what has
been originally said.
Revisionists that questions aspects of the holocaust continually run up
against slimy and underhanded tactics of this nature.
Actually, Lenin was not Jewish at all (or perhaps he was half-Jewish, there
has been historical disagreement on this); his wife was Jewish, and he was
surrounded by masses of Jewish Bolsheviks as a matter of historical fact, but
he himself was probably not Jewish and he was MOST CERTAINLY not "Zionist".
Some biographers allege or infer that Stalin was Jewish or part Jewish, or
that his family from Georgia was originally Jewish, but I haven't seen
anything solid on it. However, like Lenin, at least one of his wives was
Jewish, and he too was surrounded by masses of Jews who happily did his dirty
work. Lavrenti Beria and Lazar Kaganovich, probably the two most sordid mass-
murderers in world history, spring immediately to mind...
Please stop misquoting, misinterpreting, etc. It only confuses the real
issues (your intent no doubt).
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 547 Sun Mar 22, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE] at 18:21 EST
Raven re #520
What makes Hitler in your estimation 'a great man?" The death toll in WWII
was something like 30 million people; men, women, children, and soldiers. If
you insist on taking away the 6 million Jews, that still leaves at least 22
million, most of whom died because he thought Germany should rule the world.
For a short time, it seemed as if he would. Does that make him great? If not
that, then tell us what it is that he did to make him 'great.' It certainly
can't be what he did for the Germans. In the end, they suffered very badly
because of him.
Whether you believe in the Holocaust or not, you will have a great deal of
difficulty in sustaining your judgment of Hitler with any sort of factual
evidence.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 548 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:25 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14,
Since when does a desire to hear BOTH sides of the holocaust equate with
having "a lot of prejudicial baggage"? There are historical events and
historical facts that should not be covered up any longer, that need to be
aired, and thus, in consequence, will be better understood. Thus I mention
the historically verified facts of the extremely heavy Jewish involvement in
the various Communist movements throughout Europe. It is fact; unpalatable of
course to Jewish people who nowadays are embarrassed by the mention of it, but
historical fact nonetheless.
The same goes for the holocaust directly. The issues of the gas chambers, the
crematoria operations, etc. need to be thoroughly examined, and examined free
of dogma and hysteria. This is NOT "prejudicial baggage" when inconvenient
questions are asked on these issues.
The supporters of various holocaust myths repeatedly say that they have
nothing to hide, that the best way to deal with revisionism is to meet it head-
on with counter-argument, etc. etc., but when it comes to the crunch, they go
berserk and become hyper-emotional and even hysterical if questions are asked
or comments are made they don't like or that they cannot easily answer.
Already we see the once cool and collected POOH.BAH becoming hysterical and
resorting once again to slander and vituperation rather than rational
rejoinder.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 549 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:29 EST
To G.STEWART8,
What "tantrums" are being thrown? Are you not being rather rediculous? I have
a sense of humor and I do poke fun at the more outrageous allegations on the
holocaust and at the kinds of typical hysterical and irrational responses that
are elicited when revisionist questions and comments are posed. Or perhaps
you got the address wrong, for it seems to me that, by scrolling through the
messages, you can see masses of tantrums and wailings from a variety of
holocaust-myth supporters in message after message. After all, when questions
and comments they don't like appear, then tantrums etc. are the usual
response.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 550 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:33 EST
To AH.STEIN,
I don't think you will find a single revisionist or revisionist supporter that
makes the blanket claim "the holocaust never happened". Professor Butz, for
example, makes perfectly clear that much of what has been alleged by the
world's Jews about the holocaust carries much truth. What they question are
the more outrageous allegations, such as "mass gassings", "human soap", "human
lampshades", "Jews being eaten by guard dogs" etc. etc. etc. of which
holocaust literature is packed. Or I should say WAS packed. Nowadays few
such claims are still being made, except of course the gas chamber legends,
which are supposed to account for the bulk of the magical 6,000,000 numbers
and which ironically are least verifiable.
Please stop misquoting revisionist writings. Obviously you are not at all
familiar with revisionist thought, and rely on biased and tendentious
"interpreters" such as POOH.BAH to see what they are saying.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 551 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:39 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Once again, the irrational pseudologic of holocaustspeak is expressed.
Quotations from Prof. Faurisson are "not credible" because of measures his
university in France took against him. In your typical biased and selective
fashion, you don't mention WHY these measures were taken against him or
explain how or why they in any way make his work on the holocaust "not
credible'>
Jewish organizations in France went berserk when this literature professor
raised questions and doubts about certain aspects of the holocaust. They put
tremendous pressure on his university to "punish" and victimize him even
though his holocaust work had nothing whatsoever to do with his university
work. Like a good and politically correct university, it took measures and
Prof. Faurisson paid a price for speaking out. What this illustrates is
precisely the reason that so many historians prefer NOT so speak out on the
holocaust, even though they know that so much of it is sheer bunk. They know
that they will be victimized and abused in medieval fashion as Faurisson has
been.
By the way, for those interested, a collection of Prof. Faurisson's writings
and essays dealing with holocaust revisionism will be published by the
Institute for Historical Review in the next few months. Rather than rely on
POOH.BAH's slanders against Faurisson, one can read his work DIRECTLY and form
one's own opinions.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 552 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:43 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Oh yes, of course. David Irving "does not have a career". John Toland "does
not have a career to lose" either. And neither of them have "any positions to
lose." Because both writers have raised questions and doubts that Jews to not
like raised, they have become non-grata and are now "not credible".
Never mind, of course, that both of these famous historians were not so long
ago in the "establishment" camp and at that time were extremely critical of
Hitler, Nazism, Japan, and that they at that time accepted each and every
story about the holocaust without question. No praise or honor was too high
from Jews THEN. But both men have done serious research, they have come to
question their original historical assumptions, and they have had the courage
to speak out and voice and write their findings, and in consequence have
suddenly become "not credible" because these findings have not been
"kosher"/politically correct.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 553 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:55 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Thankyou for admitting that many communists were Jewish. Of course, that puts
you in opposition to the standard kosher line which tries to claim that the
world's Jews had nothing to do with communism at all but were in fact
"victims" of communism.
I will say again that they peoples of eastern Europe were victimized abused
and slaughtered by commissars that they knew were Jewish, and that the
Lavrenti Berias and the Lazar Kaganoviches (Jewish) were the top dogs ordering
and carrying out with such blood-lust enthusiasm the collectivization, the
gulag goings-on, etc. and the peoples of the areas that were thus so
victimized, that experienced this HOLOCAUST by Jews against non-Jews, wanted
revenge and bided their time.
The chaos and breakdown in authority following the Germans sweeping east, or,
later, retreating westwards again, was the opportunity these peoples
(Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Russians, Latvians, Estonians, etc.) were waiting
for, and the massacres of Jews that took place have to be understood in this
light. Often the German authorities were placed in the ironic position of
being responsible for the PROTECTION of the Jewish populations from the
Ukrainians etc. and such measures of protection as they took made them quite
unpopular at times with the civil populations.
The standard holocaustspeak line is rather irrational. It runs: "everybody in
eastern Europe were anti-semitic and they all killed and massacred Jews!" But
at the same time, we hear: "ALL the crimes committed against the Jews were
done by the German Nazis! To spread the responsibility to non-Germans only
sanitizes the Nazi crimes!" etc. etc. in the same neurotic, hysterical and
irrational vein.
The Poles of today have a saying: "We hated the Germans, but at least they got
rid of the Jews." The German authorities recognized the extremely powerful
feelings towards the Jews of the various eastern European peoples, and in many
cases were forced to shift entire Jewish populations elsewhere for their own
protection. Historically, this is reflected in the so-called "Pale of
Settlement" which came about for similar reasons.
Many Jews were indeed massacred or otherwise treated badly by the indigenous
populations of eastern Europe, but it is quite wrong and quite ahistorical to
lay responsibility for these events at the door of the German authorities.
If anything, responsibility would lie with the Jews themselves, for it is
their very actions and behaviour towards the host peoples of these areas that
led to these actions.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 554 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:03 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Your comments on the democratic elections of 1933 are getting more and more
ludicrous and insupportable by the minute. First you say the elections were
not democratic, then you say Hitler wasn't actually elected, etc. etc.
It is fact that the NSDAP was the single biggest party of ALL the German
parties and had the most popular support. It is fact that every politician
and leading light in Germany recognized and accepted this (some didn't like
it! of course). It is fact that Hindenburg and von Papen knew that the
popular support could not any longer be ignored and that Hitler would have to
be made Chancellor, and so he was.
Let me look for some similar analogies in our modern-day elections. How about
Israel? Very few of the Prime Ministers of Israel, especially in the last few
decades, have had solid and clear majorities. They have had to resort to
coalitions to form govts. Does this mean that they were not democratically
elected? Of course not. They WERE democratically elected, the voice of the
people (except the Palestinians of course, they don't get to vote!) chose and
the candidate with the MOST votes was given the option of forming his govt.,
just as Hitler did in 1933.
Every presidential election we have here in America shows that only some 40%
or so of the voters actually vote. Does this mean that NONE of our Presidents
are democratically elected? Of course not.
Your "logic" and "reasoning" have assumed almost desperate proportions in
their application to twist and distort history in every direction but the
truthful one. The next thing we'll probably be hearing from you is that
"Hitler never was even a candidate" or that "elections were never even held"
and that it was all propaganda created by Goebbels. They lying has got to
stop. Let's get at the truth please.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 555 Sun Mar 22, 1992
REVENANT at 19:30 EST
I must say I have found reading through this topic fascinating. I was under
the impression that MY RT, PSI-Net, was the only home of fantasy-that-thinks-
it-is-reality on GEnie. Imagine my disappointment to discover it is not, yet
my relief at an early decision to avoid "turf wars" with other Sysops over the
existence of discussions I could claim as mine in their RTs.
I should note, at this point, that I have a BA in History from the
University of Vermont, with dual teaching minors in Political Science and
English. By trade I am an author of fiction, so one could assert that, in
fact, I am paid to lie. In my studies I specialized in contemporary history
and American history. By avocation I know far more than I would like to admit
about conspiracy theories, hate groups and weird, strange things happening in
the world.
I find the nature of the argument here almost amusing because of the way
denial of the Holocaust is being handled. The Deniers seem willing to admit
that grotesquely huge numbers of individuals were murdered/exterminated by the
Third Reich. I have read messages that allow as how this is true. Here, how,
in America, we look upon a man like Ted Bundy who murdered mere tens of
victims as an inhuman monster, yet a man whose government engaged in policies
that spawn the murder of various ethnic groups is praised as a great man, a
man greater than Churchill and FDR combined. This is chilling.
I find it equally as chilling that someone can suggest that just because a
commercial crematorium here in the US in the 1990s cannot be run 24 hours and
could only account for 60 bodies in a day, that crematoria elsewhere are
limited to the same numbers. This is fallacious for two reasons: 1) Nazi
Germany did not have to deal with the EPA and other regulatory commissions for
the operation of an incinerator within city limits. More importantly, a single
crematoria for a mortuary here is not going to have anything but the most
general design features in common with an industrial facility.
I have seen documents in which people ask for their good Jewish workers to
be exempted from liquidation -- a request that clearly shows that liquidation
was taking place AND that even useful Jews were being subjected to it --
turned into proof of no criminality for the Nazi government because that one
individual showed mercy. Were I desirous of being trite or flip I might point
out that the merciful officer is merely the exception that proves the rule. As
it is the documents cited speak eloquently by themselves about a monsterous
situation.
Again and again I have seen a "zionist" conspiracy alluded to. This
conspiracy is the author of the "myth" being discussed. Those who defend the
Holocaust have been asked for and have provided documentary evidence of the
Holocaust's factual existence. I think for any rational individual, the
evidence offered confirms the terrible reality of the Holocaust.
I would ask G.RAVEN and M.RUNGU to, in turn, show their cards. I would like
to see them offer documentary evidence of the conspiracy. I would like to see
their proof that, in fact, a conspiracy was created to fabricate the "myth" of
the Holocaust.
Michael A. Stackpole PS Raven/Rungu, if you want to check me out, start with
Marquis' WHO's WHO IN THE WEST, current edition, for my bio.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 556 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:30 EST
To STEPHAN.KAHN,
You said that "everybody acknowledges and mourns" the holocaust of what we can
call the "others", meaning by "others" the non-Jews who suffered and died
during WWII.
Firstly, hardly anybody nowadays is even AWARE that non-Jews suffered or died
in any appreciable numbers. All they hear about through the mass media and in
our institutions of "learning" is that Jews suffered. There is little or no
mention of the Soviet collectivization in which 7 million or more non-Jews
perished (a collectivization policy, by the way, carried out almost entirely
by Soviet Jews as the Ukrainian people well know), the Gulag camps in which 20-
30 million mostly non-Jews perished (under the personal direction and command
of prominent NKVD Soviet Jews), the mass slaughter of Germans at war's end in
which some 6,000,000 civilians were wiped out, the mass carpet bombings aimed
at the civilian population of Germany in which over 1,000,000 civilians
perished etc. etc............I could go on and on. Most people are entirely
unaware of these events, because all they ever hear about is the JEWISH
holocaust.
Jewish organizations and Jewish leaders themselves abhor and condemn any
mention of the sufferings and deaths of non-Jews during WWII because to do so,
according to them, would be to "trivialize" the JEWISH holocuast or would
somehow "water down" or "sanitize" the Nazis' misdeeds. That is a long long
way from "everybody acknowledges and mourns" the sufferings and deaths of
these "others".
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 557 Sun Mar 22, 1992
REVENANT at 19:33 EST
M.RUNGU,
As I suggested in 555, please provide me a list of sources for your
assertion in 556 that "Jewish organizations and Jewish leaders themselves
abhor and condemn any mention of the sufferings and deaths of non-Jews during
WWII because to do so, according to them, would be to "trivialize" the JEWISH
holocuast [sic]..."
Mike
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 558 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:36 EST
To AH.STEIN,
Your continuous, hysterical misquoting of Mr. Raven's posts amaze me. When or
where did he say that "crematorias did not exist" or when or where was he
"trying to convince others they didn't exist". NOWHERE as you well know.
When Mr. Raven was saying, and I know that he is right, is that each camp had
crematoria (to deal with the fatalities from outbreaks of disease or even from
allied bombing), but none of the camps had "hundreds" of crematories. The
crux of the issue here is the allegation that "millions" of Jews (notice that
nobody else is ever mentioned? only Jews.) were "gassed" and that these
"gassed" Jews were then cremated. When you are talking unreal numbers like 3-
4 million "gassed" (even the exterminationists can't get the numbers right;
they are continually arguing about it and each one puts up different numbers),
the problem is HOW to cremate that many bodies when perhaps 10,000 or so are
gassed every day, there is only a few crematory ovens in the camp, and it
takes a minimum of 3-4 hours to cremate each body. The simple mathmatics of
it all necessitated the fantastic hoax that "hundreds" of crematoria were in
some of these "extermination" camps. The lies reach such incredible
proportions in this manner, that they HAVE to be questioned, which Mr. Raven
did. And obviously nobody is supposed to question even the most fantastic and
outrageous holocaust claims.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 560 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:48 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14
So Toland is now a "pop historian of Japan"? Fairly recently no honor or
praise was too high for him from the Jewish community back when he was still
an "establishment historian" or "court historian" that toed the politically
correct line and carefully avoiding questioning ANY WWII or holocaust dogma.
Now that his research has led him to question his earlier assumptions and now
that he is showing the courage to actually present his findings, the attacks
and slanders have begun, and all of a sudden, he, like David Irving in exactly
the same fashion, are now "not credible" and now are to be jeered and sneered
at.
A similarly ludicrous argument foolishly applied by POOH.BAH was to sneer at
Toland because he does not speak German. Somehow this was supposed to "prove"
or whatever that because he is not a fluent German-language speaker, his is
therefore "not credible". Naturally, with the same kind of double-standard
application, POOH carefully avoided mentioning that David Irving IS a fluent
German speaker, because then the argument would be turned on it's head. Of
course, the fact that Irving DOES speak German would no doubt "prove" that he
is a "Nazi", an "anti-semite" etc. etc.
Holohoaxspeak and holohoax "logic" is so bizarre it makes the head spin.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 561 Sun Mar 22, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 19:49 EST
My parting comments: Meshugge Rungu (Note: "Meshugge"=Jew-talk for "Crazy"):
You make me sick. Your kind is the best argument against the 1st Amendment
I've ever seen!
Raven: I hear you might find a little political niche for yourself in
Louisiana...
And now, to quote Poe's Raven: "NEVERMORE": IGN PER
Tuvia David ben Rafael Ha-Kohen Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 562 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:54 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14,
Actually, I condemn ANY slaughter, massacre, or similar attack on either a
civilian population or POWs. I personally regard this kind of "warfare" to be
what Veale described as an "advance to barbarism".
How about YOU, Mr. Friedman? Can you make a similar condemnation? Do you
condemn the mass slaughters and mass atrocities committed by Soviet Jewish
NKVD organizations in the Ukraine, in the Baltic, in the Russian Republic?
Can you condemn the orders issued for such massacres of non-Jews by the Jews
Lazar Kaganovitch and Lavrenti Beria? These are historical facts and every
historian accepts them. If you have any doubts, you could read Robert
Conquests many studies, Solzhenitsyn, et al. I haven't seen you or anybody
else condemn THESE holocausts yet.
The relevant question IS: WHOSE holocaust is it? If we go purely by the
numbers, and even if we accept the ludicrous 6,000,000 figure, the overall
slaughter of the "others" (i.e. non-Jews during WWII) puts the JEWISH
"holocaust" in the shade. Yet nowadays we are rarely if ever told about the
sufferings and deaths of these "others". Can you or will you condemn THIS?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 563 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:55 EST
To POOH.BAH,
When or where did I say "all communist leaders were Jewish"? You know very
well that NOWHERE did I state this. Once again, you are misquoting and lying.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 564 Sun Mar 22, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 19:55 EST
Of course, I can't resist answering the (2 unread messages before your reply).
Rungu:
At the risk of soiling one of my favorite habitats, if you think you know ONE
TENTH OF A PERCENT as much as I do about Japan and Japanology, I invite you to
the Japan BB (That's BB#8).
And I forgot to say...
GO, GET 'EM, POOH!
Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 566 Sun Mar 22, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 20:00 EST
BTW (Hey, come one, it's my last post...gimme a break!)
About your crack about Jews & Toland, I've got some news for you, Mohammed:
I'll bet those Jews weren't assessing Toland's worth to the field of Japanese
historiography. I'm going to type in capitals now, so you'll be sure and
understand: JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY RECEIVES COMPLIMENTS AS A HUMAN BEING
DOESN'T MAKE THEM A GREAT SCHOLAR!
Just because you seem incapable of judging anything of historical worth by any
criteria other than the way you feel about someone/thing, doesn't make Toland
a "good" historian of Japan. Of course, if you speak Japanese and have gotten
your BA in Japanese history, come talk to me.
Now I'm quitting for real.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 567 Sun Mar 22, 1992
M.RUNGU at 20:02 EST
To J.STENGEL,
I don't agree with you that POOH.BAH has displayed "scholarly aloofness" at
all. Her tone originally tried to convey that, but it quickly reverted back
to the slanders and emotional outbursts that we see in message after message
POOH is putting up. The "scholarly" categorization is also false, for she has
shown in her extremely selective presentation of "documentation" that her
intent is merely to distort history rather than to verify it.
I am also finding that too many people are displaying a subjective and biased
approach to this subject. They are taking the basic line that each and every
allegation or claim made about the holocaust is beyond doubt and cannot in any
way ever be questioned, and that any intrepid sould that DOES raise doubt, or
that DOES question inconveniently, is automatically to be labeled a "sanitizer
of Nazism", an "anti-semite" etc. etc. I suppose the assumption is that if
enough mud and abuse is thrown at those expressing revisionist thought, that
their points and arguments will be drowned out.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 568 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 22:35 EST
537 Pooh.Bah:
>There are apparently some people participating in this TOPic who don't
understand the difference between "history," "literature" and "court
records."
Are you referring just to nevaR and ugnuR, or are there others?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 569 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 22:36 EST
540 Carl:
> Yes, but she's a historian, and I'm a biologist. Why does it surprise
you that I know more biology than she?
nevaR is apparently taken aback when anyone knows anything, depending as he
does on ignorance to spread his misinformation.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 570 Sun Mar 22, 1992
AH.STEIN at 22:37 EST
541 Jim:
>It is obvious that you have a desire to ridicule and lambast Raven and
Rungu.
Only as much as they deserve, which is far more than I can deliver.
>Your justifiable outrage is resulting is a series of rather childish
retorts which do not add to the case for the historical truth of the
holocaust. I believe the case is best represented by utilization of
factual evidence.
The case, as you know, has been made and proven many times over. Pooh.Bah
is making it once again, but I'm sure she has no expectation of convincing
nevaR and ugnuR, who well know about the Holocaust but choose, for their
own evil reasons, to try to convince others of its nonexistence.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 571 Sun Mar 22, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 23:04 EST
# 556
It's never been a secret or surprise to me that the Nazis killed many other
people besides Jews.
It's understandable that Jews focus on Jews, but it's a long reach from there
to covering up or hiding the other deaths. Please provide documentation rather
than repeated assertions.
Your statement
> hardly anybody nowadays is even AWARE that non-Jews suffered or
> died in any appreciable numbers
seems to lead to an admission that the Nazis did kill a lot of people
wantonly.
However, you slide over into your now familiar refrain about the Jews being
behind the Communists and leading the Communist slaughters. First, no one
denies the Communist atrocities in the Ukraine, the Gulags, and elsewhere
except Communists and those sympathetic to them. There has been plenty of
information about that, and with the collapse of Communism, a flood of
additional information is coming out.
You have repeatedly asserted that Jews are responsible for Communism. You
haven't provided any documentation whatsoever. An assertion repeated 20 times
is no more valid than one repeated once without documentation.
You refer to Robert Conquest and Solzhenitsyn, who are respected historical
writers. Please indicate anywhere they blame Jews for Communism.
Some Jews have been involved with Communism. So have people from every
nationality and ethnic group there is, both in the world as a whole (are the
Jews responsible for Communism in China?) and every group in the Soviet Union,
the heartland of Communism. Are all Georgians to be condemned because Stalin
was one?
Believe it or not, Jews are not a monolithic group. You can find Jews of many
religious, political, social, and personal views, just like "real people". I
am Jewish. I am not religious. I'm not a Communist. I'm not an international
banker. I support Israel, but I often criticize it. I'm in vehement
disagreement with some of the other Jews on this bulletin board about whether
this discussion should be allowed to continue.
None of this would make any difference if I lived in Germany or Eastern Europe
during WWII.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 572 Sun Mar 22, 1992
ERIC-M at 23:04 EST
>>> POOH.BAH
> How this helps to give you a general answer to your question. I will be
> supplying the documentary evidence for the above statements later when I
> get to the discussion of the extermination camps.
Yeah...thanks. :-)
I didn't wanna break the current discussion off and jump ahead 'bout the
gassings. I was just curious about the methods used, as I can only remember
the hydrogen cyanide poisoning being taught. I certainly couldn't imagine
using HCN in portable vans, though.
That's enough for now to satisfy my curiosity... I'll await more later when
you get to the actual discussion about the extermination camps.
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 573 Sun Mar 22, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 23:05 EST
Ric, several recent messages seem to me to more properly belong in Topic 7.
#559, #565, for a couple.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 574 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 23:28 EST
To W.Gross4 (regarding 489) ---
It is commendable that you are approaching this Shoah Business
keeping Occam's razor in mind. However, you are in error in
attributing the dead at Bergen-Belsen to the Holohoax. Typhus and
starvation were the causes of death at B-B, as proved by autopsies
performed when the Allies liberated the camp.
---
Second, very few people have such a thing as a home crematory. Most
crematoria are industrial duty by nature and by design. Consider, if
the Germans had planned to cremate millions of Jews at the killing
centers such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, why did they have to expand the
number of crematories during the war? And if these crematoria were so
central to this alleged mass extermination, why did they not build
the new crematoria so they would function flawlessly? As it was, they
got only partial use out of Kremas IV and V due to poor construction
(there was a war going on, after all).
---
Finally, although the Germans may have been moving the mail until
late in the game, I think you will find upon further study that the
entire infrastructure of Germany was in shambles at war's end, thanks
to FDR's inhumane demand of unconditional surrender.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 575 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 23:28 EST
To Carl Fink (regarding 500) ---
I am sorry you felt the "tone" of my message 379 was an attempt and
making myself seem superior to you. That was not my intent in using
the construction I did. And, as you will recall, I earlier in that
post complimented you on your analogy, flawed though I found it.
However, onward we must.
---
Although in a rigorous examination of this question you would of
necessity look at all aspects of the question, in this case one can
arrive at the truth in relatively short order by noting that there is
no way the Nazis could have murdered people in the manner described
(that is, by mass gassings). Once you determine that the so-called
event never could have taken place, you can always invest time in
further study of the other issues, if you wish. Of course, Pooh.bah
and I have agreed to approach this matter from a different angle, so
you can expect we will spend more time reaching the only logical
conclusion.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 576 Sun Mar 22, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 23:29 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 509 et al) ---
You seem to have missed the point of this and other posts. Allow me
to reiterate.
---
When I was in school, I was taught that Jews were herded into rooms
ostensibly so they could shower. The doors then slammed shut and
poison gas came out of the shower heads instead of water. This isn't
true, is it? Yet, this is the version of the Holohoax that is still
taught in California schools.
---
I was told that the war crimes trials (such as those at Nuremberg)
proved the Nazis culpable for the crimes charged against them. Many
of those charges were vulgar lies, and even you admit that court
cases do not establish history. In fact, the war crimes trials were
all show trials, following the Soviet example.
---
I was told that the Holohoax referred to the 6 million Jews who were
exterminated in gas chambers by the Nazis. This definition has
changed, hasn't it?
---
I have read exterminationist historians (such as Hilberg, Dawidowicz,
Reitlinger, etc.) who positively state certain things as being facts,
only to find these same historians are often contradicted or
denounced by more modern exterminationist hist